Annie Butler Harper, Marilynn Butler Paige, & Lily Butler Pierre

ANNIE BUTLER HARPER: Gonna hold this book here, if that’s okay.

ROBBY LUCKETT: That is perfect. My name is Robby Luckett. Today is Saturday, December 17, 2016. We are at the Smith Robertson Museum and Cultural Center. Tell me your names, and, if you would, spell them, please.

ABH: Okay. My complete name is Annie Lee Butler Harper. That’s A-N-N-I-E L-E-E B-U-T-L-E-R H-A-R-P-E-R.

LILY BUTLER PIERRE: I’m Lily Fay Butler Pierre, L-I-L-Y F-A-Y B-U-T-L-E-R P-I-E-R-R-E, of Edwards, Mississippi.

MARILYNN BUTLER PAIGE: I’m Marilynn Yvonne Butler Paige, M-A-R-I-L-Y-N-N 00:01:00Y-V-O-N-N-E B-U-T-L-E-R P-A-I-G-E, and I reside in Jackson, Mississippi. I’m originally from Edwards, Mississippi.

RL: Is it okay for me to record this interview?

LBP: Yes.

RL: Yes?

MBP: Yes, it is.

ABH: Yes, yes with me.

RL: Just begin by telling us a little bit about yourselves: who you are, your parents, how you grew up, where you grew up, what family life was like, those kinds of things. And anybody can start, jump in.

ABH: Okay. All right, well— LBP: Go ahead, cuz [ph].

ABH: —since I’m the old guy here, [laughs] I’ll get started. I was born in Bolton, Mississippi, actually between Bolton and Edwards. There was a thin line as to where the lines actually stopped, but I think on my birth certificate it says Bolton. I was delivered by a midwife, not my grandmother, who was 00:02:00and is—still is—a midwife, not “is” in the fact that she’s practicing—she’s gone on to glory—but I know she’s still very, very much carrying on her practice, if babies are being born in Heaven. [Laughter.] I don’t know about that.

But, as I said, I was born in Bolton, and I was delivered by a midwife, and as a child I knew from hearing the adults talk about Lily Butler was a midwife. I didn’t know what a midwife was at that time, but I was just—I think I was somewhat a little nosy, and I would always kinda listen to the adults talk when they didn’t know I was listening, and I would hear them talk about babies, and the fact that Lily had to go out and deliver a baby, maybe late at night, or somethin’ like that. But as I got older, and I learned more, I found out a lot about the things that she did, and the many babies 00:03:00that she had delivered in the community, and how she would walk to wherever they were, how someone would probably come in on a horse or a mule and say that their wife was about to deliver, and she would get up and dress up and go and take care of business. When I found out about this, I spoke with my sister in California, who lived with her—that’s Lily Parker Butler, that is—and she knows, or she’s related to, someone who—we called her Mo [sp?] Lily—delivered her first child. He’s now livin’ in California, and she had that information so that he can be contacted about it.

But my sister, who grew up with her, talked about the fact that she was a very, very wise lady. In addition to being a midwife, she believed in not wasting anything. That could be walking to someplace, and if she walked past a board or stick 00:04:00or anything, she would pick it up and say, “Oh, this can be used to build a house, or used for somethin’,” and she picked up everything. And eventually she used it. She also shared with me the fact that she would carry a basket filled with something on top of her head, and two buckets in her hand, and they would walk to town, and go to the back doors of homes, and sell whatever she had in those containers. And we talk about her from time to time. When I got to know her, I believe she had retired from being a midwife, but I just remember she was a church lady. She was a very well-learned—she could’ve been an OB/GYN, had that been, you know, someplace for her to go at that time. But, to my knowledge, and to my memory, she was a wonderful, wise lady.

RL: Thank you. Tell 00:05:00us a little about yourselves.

LBP: Well, for me, I am named for my grandmother, and that was a plight that I had to grow into, because those were big shoes to fill. My grandmother was, as my cousin Anne indicated, very well learned, she was very articulate, but one thing that I found most profound about my grandmother was her preparation in anything. Whether we were makin’ change on Sunday for the Sunday school, if we were goin’ through our literature for our Christmas program, preparation was essential for my grandmother. As my cousin indicated, she always picked up something. She always had—if you needed a thimble, a pin, whatever, she had it somewhere. She was like that person. But we were speaking before we got started about our memories, many 00:06:00fond memories of my grandmother. We were a part of the same church down in St. Mark, and my grandmother was one of the founding members, as well as my dad’s name is etched on the cornerstone at the church. His name is Alcorn [sp?] Butler, Sr. But my grandmother instilled in us a sense of ownership, meaning own what it is that you’re doing. Make decisions about it. Never be just content with what you’re doing. Always want to build on more, even if you have to improvise to make it for yourself.

So, like I said, I was named for her. I’m 13 of 15 siblings. My sister is here. Another one is here, but she’s not feeling good. But we were raised with the sense of family and connectedness, of being cohesive. And my grandmother used to always tell me walk with purpose. I just couldn’t walk like lollygagging. 00:07:00I had to walk with purpose, like I had a mission to do something. She would always tell us things about an idle mind is the devil’s workshop. When she would come home, if we were not doing something productive, she would encourage us to read. My grandmother taught me how to do multiplication, basically in the dirt. She wanted to see what I knew and how I could do it.

So, fun stories of her delivering I got from my aunt, which is her sister, is her preparation on getting the pads made up to deliver. She would use old newspapers, and lots of the whites would save the newspapers for her to make her pads for the mother. She always wanted the mother to be comfortable. And she would deliver babies sometimes without money. She would just take whatever they had, if it was, you know, a piece of pork chop sandwich, or a bacon sandwich, or whatever. She would take it. And one thing that I’m most impressed with about my grandmother is when babies were born, if they 00:08:00had complications. Like, one fella had a cleft foot, and my grandmother was able to, you know, get him to Jackson, where the doctors were able to help that young man straighten out his foot. Different, you know, illnesses that happened, my grandmother was able to improvise with different medications that she would make up on her own to give to the mother for prevention and preparation.

RL: That’s great, thank you. And we have a picture of your grandmother.

MBP: Yes, we have a picture of Lily Parker Butler here before us today. And there isn’t much I can add on to what my cousin and sister have said, but I will make an attempt. I was delivered by my grandmother on April 17th in 1953, in Edwards, Mississippi, on the spot where the house still resides, but a newer house, of course. I don’t have a lot of fond memories of my grandmother, but I do have some memories, because my mother passed away when I was six weeks old, and I was 00:09:00raised by my mother’s cousins, but I did visit often my father and my sisters, my siblings, and I did get to know her to some extent, and what I did learn was very, very informative and very important in my life, because she was a very, very industrious woman. She, as my cousin said, didn’t waste anything. Everything had a purpose.

LBP It’s true.

MBP: And we would travel with her different places, walking, and she could outwalk all of us. [Laughter.] We were young, and she was probably in her fifties by then. “Come on, young people! Come on, young people! You’re slow, you’re slow! What you made out of? Let’s go, let’s go, let’s go!” So she was always, always preaching for you to be successful and to try and do the best that you could in life. And I do love her, and I can see her right now. She would come into the house sometimes in the mornings, and, “Get up, get up, get up! Everybody, get up! Get up, young folks! Get up, young folks! It’s time to go to church! Get up, young folks!” They’d say, “Oh my goodness, here comes Mama Lily.” [Laughter.] But those are my 00:10:00memories of her, the times I did spend with her, which were great, and I wish I had more time to spend with her.

RL: Sounds like a large family, both kind of your immediate family and extended family. Did everybody live relatively close to each other?

LBP: My sister and I, we’re one of 15, and we all lived in I think maybe a two-room house, maybe three-room.

MBP: And I would come and visit them. When my mother passed, my cousin, Olivia Krissler [sp?], took me and raised me, because my father had to work, and he needed someone to help him with me. So she took me in and raised me from a baby until 16, at which time she passed away. But during that time, she always made a point to take me to visit my sisters and brothers, and spend time with my sisters and brothers, and when I would go spend time with them, we’d all stay together in that two-bedroom house. [Laughs.] LBP: That’s true.

MBP: And we’d have fun, and we didn’t realize— 00:11:00LBP: We didn’t know we were poor.

MBP: We didn’t know we were poor.

LBP: We had no idea.

MBP: We thought we were the richest people in the world. We had each other.

LBP: We had no idea we were poor. When I look back over my life, and I think about my accomplishments, and my parents, and the hard work and the devotion that they made, I’m humbled by it.

MBP: Yes.

LBP: Very humbled by it. And one thing I was gonna add about my sister, and my dad, he wanted her to be raised by a female, too, because he had three of the little boys, so she was raised by a female so that she would be able to get all of that nurturing. But when my dad married my mom, she was just like one of us. We never considered ourselves step or half.

MBP: Oh, no. We were raised as— LBP: We just— You can tell. We look like twins. [Laughter.] MBP: —sisters and brothers. Yes, yes.

RL: And your grandmother must’ve lived nearby, as well.

MBP: She did.

LBP: My grandmother lived, I would say, with us a lot, because in her practice she would go from place to place, delivering babies, but she had a home base, 00:12:00you know, where she would come, you know, just to do her quilting, or she would come. You know, we grew up essentially like farmers, so everything that we ate, they raised it. And my grandmother, like my sister said, was industrial. She would know how to put up corn, peas, beans. All that stuff was a part of our life. So along with my mom and my grandmother, my dad, we had hog killin’ season. We had deer huntin’ season. We had makin’ sausage. We had killin’ chickens, constantly. So my— Go ahead, sis.

MBP: I was just gonna say, and most of— We survived on bein’ self-supportive, you know.

LBP: Yes.

MBP: The only thing we shopped for would be flour, sugar, or corn, but raised all of our vegetables and everything— LBP: We raised everything.

MBP: —and we raised, you know, the meats and stuff that we ate and everything, and we prepared everything, too.

LBP: And that was thanks to my grandmother, ’cause at age 13 she had to leave the school and go and work in the fields, because her parents, you know, were sharecroppers, 00:13:00and she was the only child. There were no boys. So my grandmother, she had to be resourceful, you know, being a young girl, growing up at that time. Your dad with no boys. She was sent to the fields to work, until she wanted to go to school and become a physician. So she was able to meet her life practice of delivering babies. She was able to get the training from the project-based training programs that they had coming in Hinds County, where she learned from other doctors or other midwife about, you know, the OB/GYN-type practice. So she taught us the basis of being women, being proud, being hardworking, and being accountable. You know, you couldn’t go to my grandmother all puffed up and cryin’ like you was messed up, because she wanted to know what did you do. She 00:14:00wanted you to be accountable for your actions, and once you were accountable then she’d come up with a plan. But she would never just say, [snaps] “Oh, what happened, little baby?”, or whatever. She called me brown-skinned girl. I didn’t even think she knew I had a name. [Laughter.] She probably called you brown-skinned girl, too. She didn’t call us by our names. I’m named Lily. She’s named Lily, but she called me brown-skinned girl. I accepted it. [Laughter.] RL: When was she born?

LBP: She died in 1976. She was born in, I think, 1884, but I’ll get the dates.

MBP: It was 1880s. I don’t remember the exact— LBP: But she died in nineteen seventy— ANNETTA BUTLER DONOVAN: Seven.

LBP: —’77.

RL: An amazing life.

MBP: Yes.

ABH: Amazing.

LBP: An amazing life.

ABH: Amazing life.

MBP: Had she had a formal education, who knows.

LBP: That woman— And I was sharing with my siblings in the green room: even 00:15:00if— I mean, it wasn’t like— You could go to her for anything, but even if it was just, like, something so critical, people would come to her with their paperwork to read it. If they had some land issue, or something that was big that was involving them, or involving the town, they would bring it to her to read it, to explain it to them. And when they wanted someone to talk about the Civil Rights, from Edwards, they sent her up here in Jackson to talk to—when Dr. King came down for the Poor People’s Campaign, my grandmother was the spokesperson. So what I’m saying is if it’s something that was so difficult for the townspeople to understand and know how to proceed, they would bring it to my grandmother and let her discern it, and she would tell ’em what to do and how to proceed.

RL: How did she get her education? 00:16:00MBP: Self-taught.

LBP: She started reading at about four years old, because she loved books. And the sharecropper’s wife took a notice to her, and found out that she was very keen on learning, she was articulate, so she started giving her books, and she started reading with her. But then, like I said, at 13 she had to go to the fields, so she went to school from, like, six or seven to 13. She got that profound learning about life, about academics, about science, medicine, just in that short time. So her dad, like I said, he wanted her in the field. He knew that she wanted to go on to college and become a doctor, physician, but he needed her in the field, so she had to get out there and plow the fields.

ABH: Now, this was in Terry, Terry, Mississippi.

LBP: Outside of Terry.

ABH: Outside 00:17:00of Terry, Mississippi. That’s where she’s from: Terry.

RL: And what did her mother think about this?

LBP: Her mother did not want her to go out there into the fields, but what happened, my granddad came around. My granddad came around, kind of like a wanderer. You know, he was going from place to place. And then my grandmother’s granddad wanted her to just get married so that he would have someone extra to work in the fields. So her mother didn’t want her to get married to my granddaddy. She wanted her to marry this looked like a preacher boy, that wear suits, and he could read and everything. But my granddaddy wanted her with Jim Butler, because Jim Butler could, like, work in the fields. You know, he didn’t want to put a suit on; he wanted to give him a hoe and a rake and, you know, get to working.

RL: What did your grandmother want?

LBP: My grandmother wanted the man with the suit, but her daddy got her to Jim Butler. That’s our granddaddy. [Laughter.] MBP: Yeah, James 00:18:00Butler? But everybody calls him Jim.

ABH: Calls him Jim.

MBP: Jim Butler.

LBP: Yep. So she wanted to be with the man that wore the suits, and went to church, and could read, but that man was not gonna come out in the fields and work for my granddaddy, so— MBP: But she played the hand she was dealt very well, and— LBP: She did.

MBP: She did.

RL: And who taught her to read?

LBP: Who?

RL: Your grandmother. Who taught your grandmother?

LBP: This white lady I’m tellin’ you about.

RL: The white lady did.

LBP: Yeah, the white lady got her the books on, I guess, the plantation for the sharecroppers. So their sharecropper family was very nice to them, so they took a notice of her because she was always articulate. And this white lady gave her— I have her name and everything, and I sent that in the email. She gave her the—started her on some little books, and then when she saw she was more advanced, she got her on some more books. And then, you know, she went to school, and then she learned more, 00:19:00and then the lady kept giving her books. She would be in the fields, reading and plowing, reading and plowing. She did that all her life, because her dad said, “Lily, you know you gotta come out here and work. Put these books up.” But she brought the books with her. And one thing that she stressed for us, and I wanna say it, is education. She wanted us to be able to get the education. She knew that there was knowledge, and power in it, and she impressed upon us— You know my cousin, she worked down at the college. My sister, she’s worked different administrative positions. My other sister, she’s worked as an air traffic controller, and I’m a systems engineer. And my grandmother impressed upon us the importance of education, the importance of being learned and articulate, and having a purpose. Like I told you, if she would see me walkin’ sluggish, she would say, “Walk with purpose, brown-skinned 00:20:00girl.” And sometimes I’m thinking now, am I walkin’ with purpose, Lily? [Laughter.] ABH: And she used the term a lot, “Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God.” LBP: “Oh my God.” ABH: “Oh my God, oh my God.” And she was known by those— LBP: She coined that OMG.

ABH: Yes, “Oh my God, oh my God.” And at some point, perhaps the program will be able to interview my sister, who’s 80, the one in California, who lived with her for a while.

LBP: That’s true. Barbara.

ABH: So I think Barbara would be a good— LBP: Barbara Butler ’cause she knows all about it.

ABH: Yes. And when I spoke with her two nights ago, she stressed the importance of getting it while it’s still in her memory, because she’s 80, so at some point perhaps the program can get in touch with her. And the person I spoke about earlier, who’s related to her, that she delivered—Ma Lily delivered her first son, and all she could remember was the fact that she 00:21:00laid her out on the ironing board. And, of course, the ironing board didn’t have— You had to put them between chairs then. But I imagine she wanted something firm to put her on for the birthing. But I’ll make sure someone has that information, to contact my sister in California. Because the young man and his mother are there, in California. Of course, she delivered you, Marilynn. She delivered my brother. But she didn’t deliver me— LBP: She delivered me.

ABH: Oh, my. [Laughs.] MBP: And me.

LBP: And signed my birth certificate. Lily Butler.

ABH: [inaudible].

MBP: I have some copies of some of the birth certificates that she signed.

RL: That’s great. We would love to see those. So she wanted to be a doctor.

LBP: A physician, some type of physician.

RL: And I assume that led her to be a midwife, but how did she become a midwife?

ABH: She just natural— LBP: The training. At this time, when they selected, 00:22:00I guess, young girls to learn about it, they picked her because she was so brave, right? Nothin’ scared her: the afterbirth, all of the crisis of it. There’s been stories—they would send for my grandmother when someone was dying, and she knew the death protocol so the person would die in peace, okay? So they picked up on her being brave. They picked up on her being fearless. They gave her some training, this project-based training, so that she would be able to know what to do. But she also innately— MBP: Had the ability to do it.

LBP: She had the ability, you know.

RL: How old was she when she started getting the training?

LBP: She started getting the training at about— Once she went into the fields at 13, some of the people had noticed that she was so brave, she could read, she was articulate, she could figure out all this stuff. The same 00:23:00white lady that taught her to read facilitated her. And there’s some association with the Ford house, or the people with that name, Ford, because my brother’s named John Ford, and there’s a John Ford that’s affiliated with this Ford house. She may have been affiliated with these same people up here in Jackson, who taught her to do the work. But she learned about prevention. She learned about prenatal. She would have her customers in different places. This one would be delivered on this date, so she knew, gave ’em a plan. This one’s on bed rest. This one can’t have any salt, no sugar. She gave ’em all these different preventive mechanisms.

RL: And— LBP: She was before her time.

MBP: Yeah, she was.

LBP: That woman was before her time.

MBP: And my mother that raised me, she would come by and take care of her. My mother that raised me got extremely ill right before she passed, 00:24:00and my grandmother was at her side, came by, you know, to give her words of encouragement. And she would come by sometimes and do medicinal things for her. And I don’t know where she got the mother wit [ph] to do them, but she would do certain things, and when she’d leave my mother would start feeling better. I don’t know what happened, what she did, but it worked.

LBP: ’Cause she read everything. Everything that they put in front of her, she read it.

MBP: And she also provided care for us when we were growin’ up. You know, back then you had— LBP: Exactly.

MBP: —whooping cough, measles, and all types of illnesses like that. She had a remedy for everything you had. She had some type of remedy. You might not like the remedy, but she had one for you. [Laughter.] LBP: That’s true.

ABD: That’s so true. Yeah, I just remember that you didn’t have normal [inaudible] remedy, but you realized it would get you well. Yeah.

RL: So did she have to leave the fields when she started midwifing? What did her dad think about that? [Laughter.] Or what did he think about her being a midwife?

LBP: Well, her dad got in that field— Remember, she got with Jim Butler. Remember 00:25:00that? Jim Butler’s our granddaddy, and he was wanderin’ around, coming from place to place. He was a wanderer. And Jim Butler came over there— MBP: Wandering Jim.

LBP: Wandering Jim, and they got her married. So when she got married, she had, what, eight children of her own?

MBP: It was eight, uh-huh [affirmative], eight.

LBP: She had eight children of her own. That’s her daddy and our daddy; they’re brothers. Lafayette Butler’s her daddy; Alcorn Butler’s our daddy. So once she got through with the fields, she got married to Jim Butler. She got the training to become a nurse midwife. She still went all over delivering babies: Hinds, Yazoo County. She went all over. So she was delivering babies, and Jim Butler was home with the kids. [Laughter.] RL: And when people would want her, how would they come in— LBP: Buggy. Some people would find her by buggy and wagon. You know, I told you she would have a schedule of all the people, when she would give ’em the estimated births. You know, 40 weeks and all this, you’ll 00:26:00know when the baby’s coming. She would know all these different things based on the mother’s body and implications. So she had a schedule. They would go and get her, like, late at night or early in the morning. She would stay with these people until the baby came. And one other funny story we were sharing: even if the people couldn’t pay her, they would find her in the kitchen the next morning, makin’ her own self breakfast. [Laughter.] She said, “That’s okay, baby. I made me a pork chop sandwich. I’m good.” She’s goin’ to the next. She was so organized. Remember, I told you organization was essential for her. So all of her patients, she had a schedule, a calendar. She would know this one’s going to be delivering around this time. They sent a buggy and a wagon to go and get her. She’d get on that buggy and wagon, do that birth, make her food, go to the next person, ’cause many people couldn’t pay her. And I think it was, like, $25 to deliver your baby back then. That’s a lot of money—like, probably 2,000 now—but nevertheless my 00:27:00grandmother’s commitment to families and community had nothin’ to do with money. It was her practice. It was her devotion. She was deeply rooted in her faith. As I told you, she was one of the founding members over at St. Mark Church down in Edwards. So her commitment and devotion, it came from on high. As my cousin said, she don’t know if she’s delivering babies up there, but she’s handling her business. [Laughter.] ABH: She’s taking care. And I grew up under the shadow of that. “Oh, Lily Butler must be your grandmother. You look just like her. Oh, you got legs like her.” So we all have similar features.

LBP: Yes.

MBP: They always asked us, “You’re a Butler?” LBP: “You’re a Butler?” ABH: “You’re a Butler.” [Laughter.] LBP: Some strong genes. And the people in the town, you know, they trusted her, so other people would get credit based on her name. So they would go to the town, and they would want— It’s not like it is today, you get some sugar or whatever, they would give it in a bag, whatever, and they would say, “Do 00:28:00you know Lily Butler?” And they would say, “Yes.” They said, “Well, go tell Lily Butler to write me a note,” ’cause Lily Butler could write, and she was one of the few that could write, “that she knows you, and that you’re okay to get this flour or sugar.” Then they’d go all the way back to my grandmother. She’d either say yes or no. The person couldn’t read, so they didn’t know if they said, “Don’t give it to ’em,” or, “Let ’em have it.” But my grandmother was like an intercessory for people to get things, and for people to have credit. She was that intercessory.

ABH: And if they didn’t call her Lily Butler, they called her Mo Lily.

LBP: Mo Lily.

ABD: Mo Lily, Ma Lily, mm-hmm [affirmative].

ABH: That’s what we all called her.

MBP: That’s what we all called her.

LBP: Mo Lily.

ABH: Mo Lily.

ABD: Mo Lily.

MBP: Not Mama Lily but Mo Lily.

ABH: Mo Lily. You gotta know how to say it.

LBP: You know, like “Mo”?

ABH: You gotta let it roll out.

LBP: Mo Lily.

ABH: Mo. [Laughs.] We didn’t have time to say Mama Lily. Mo Lily.

LBP: And her sister in California, Barbara, I got to meet her before I came to Mississippi. She is the spitting image of my 00:29:00grandmother. And she’s not going nowhere. Her mind is sharp as a tack. She’s got—you see my grandmother’s face? That Barbara is identical to her, got the high cheeks, the moles. She’s identical. So if we could get her on camera, ’cause she told me some great stories. Barbara’s 80, right?

ABP: Eighty. She’s turned 80 in December. I think this is her birth month. She turned 80 last December.

LBP: Wow.

ABP: So she’s 81 this December.

RL: You mentioned the pads. What all things did she have that she would take with her?

LBP: Well, because she did prevention and preparation, all of the whites down in the town would save all their newspapers up, right? So she wanted to make the mother as comfortable as possible, so she’d get maybe, like, 15 sheets of newspaper, then put some cotton in between it, then with some more, and then some plastic, and then she’d make her own little quilting pad. So she’d throw all that other stuff away. You know, when the baby’s 00:30:00born, that’s gonna be a lot of waste. So she would be able to keep what she needed and throw everything else away, but she wanted to make the mother as comfortable as possible. There was things that they would have to do, like get the water boiled, get whatever the thing, cut the cord. She had her little scissors. She had her little black bag. And our aunt up in Gary, Indiana has these artifacts. So she would make these pads, with newspaper, fill ’em up with cotton, some type of plastic, and she wants the mother to be as comfortable as possible.

ABH: And I imagine—now, this is not a fact—she probably saved, you know, meal and flour came in cloth sacks— LBP: Sure did.

ABH: —so she probably saved those, washed them and bleached them— MBP: She did.

ABH: —sterilized them, and used those— LBP: And cut ’em, and then quilt— ABH: —so that she could wash, yeah, and use over again. And I’m assuming the boiled water— 00:31:00They say now on TV, boil the water. I remember she used that to sterilize— LBP: Sterilize her equipment.

ABH: —all of her equipment.

RL: Do you remember things that were in the black bag?

LBP: I know my aunt said she had her scissors, little, bitty scissors that she used to cut the cord. You know, there was some type of complication, like the little boy with the cleft foot, she had to turn him around and get him out. Maybe she had some device that could help her do that. But everything that she had I’m sure was, like, pre-medical society that we know of today.

ABH: And at some point I remember being told she massaged that foot until it turned the way it was supposed to be, just constantly massaging it. I don’t remember— Maybe I heard some of the older people talk about that. You know, they didn’t know what it was called, but they knew somethin’ was wrong with his foot, and they said Lily rubbed his foot until it just turned 00:32:00the way it was supposed to be.

LBP: Well, she got him to some doctors up in Jackson— ABH: And they worked— LBP: —and she got him to the point where I guess the foot deformity, right when they were born, you know, it’s crucial to do whatever. And like Anne said, she was massaging, or putting salve on it, but she got that boy up in Jackson to some doctor, orthopedic doctor, and I think some doctor up in Tupelo or whatever got with them, and they got that boy straight. But I’ll share a story with you about a young—well, an old—man that I know, who told me that my grandmother is the one that taught him how to count. So when he got a job, and they tried to cheat him, he said he figured it out, wrote it all down, and told ’em, “This what you owe me.” Said, “Lily Butler taught me how to count.” And they said, “Give him that money,” ’cause they knew Lily Butler could do the math.

ABD: My Jesus.

RL: Did she have a uniform that she wore, or—?

LBP: She wore a apron. An 00:33:00apron, and it kinda, like, tied up, and it had the pockets. And it had a pocket here, pockets here. And she had ’em filled up with whatever you need.

MBP: She was so full of energy. She had so much energy.

ABH: What about a headpiece? I think I’ve seen— I don’t know if I’ve seen a picture with the headpiece on.

MBP: Yes.

LBP: She always wore a rag— MBP: Yeah, she did.

LBP: —on her head like this, that’s true.

ABH: Tied around.

MBP: She did.

LBP: When she was goin’ with the women, havin’ the baby, she would wear a rag around her head. That’s true.

RL: How long would she be gone?

LBP: Oh my God, she’d be gone sometime weeks.

MBP: It depended on circumstances.

LBP: How many people she had, and the— You know, she had her master calendar of all these people that would be givin’ birth, and she worked with a network of midwives. It wasn’t just her; there was, like, a coalition of ’em, right? I don’t know if there was some society that went out to educate these midwives, but she was a part of this consortium of midwives. So they would work together and collaborate on what they were doin’, different techniques, 00:34:00but she would be, like, the forerunner on teachin’ them things.

RL: Were they licensed, or was there anything that they had to do like that with the State, or—?

LBP: Well, they had to get some training, this project-based training.

MBP: They probably didn’t have— At that point in time, I don’t think there was a license involved.

LBP: I don’t think they gave them a license, but she had to— I mean, the qualifications for a job like that is bravery, ’cause my aunt who gave me all this information said she went with my grandmother one time, and because the screaming and all of that drove her crazy, she couldn’t do it. So that would drive you out. Even if you got a license, if you’re not brave, you can’t take that screaming— You know, women havin’ babies—well, you don’t know, but [laughter] it could be complicated.

MBP: Yes, it can.

RL: And she delivered each of you?

MBP: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

LBP: Yeah.

ABH: She didn’t deliver me, but she delivered— LBP: Her brother.

ABH: —my brother. That’s the older, one of the older— LBP: Lafayette.

ABH: —siblings.

RL: And were you 00:35:00delivered by a midwife, as well?

ABH: Yes. Her name was Lucy Jordan [sp?]. And I’m not sure— Since there’s a piece on midwives, I may try to find something— LBP: Include her.

ABH: —yeah—about that person. But I remember her name. And I looked at my birth certificate not long ago, and it has Lucy Jordan on there.

LBP: Wow.

ABH: But I remember my mother tellin’ me that my brother was a pretty large baby, somethin’ like 12 pounds. I guess she probably had some scales. And she said, “Lily Butler had so many quilts on top of me [laughs] that it was hot,” and she had her down in front of the fireplace, just pushing, and doing whatever to get him delivered, because he was very large.

LBP: So big.

ABH: And we laugh about that now, the fact that, you know— And those were just probably— There are many other complications that she encountered. Now, 00:36:00what happens with a very large baby? They’d have a cesarian, or they can, you know, cut and open up the birth thing a little larger. But I remember her saying she stayed by the fire, and said Lily had quilts on top of quilts, and whatever that would do, it worked. [Laughter.] He’s here today.

LBP: ’Cause they didn’t have the test where you could see the baby— ABH: Exactly.

LBP: —and know the sex and all of that.

MBP: Or know the position of the baby, all those things.

ABH: That’s it.

LBP: But my grandmother could analyze her patients based on their demeanor, and, you know, she would interview them, and she would know what they would need. She wasn’t able to give a scan test or any type of DNA test or anything, but she could give the tests that she could.

ABD: You wanna tell them about my birth?

ABH: She delivered— RL: Please.

LBP: Well, my sister over there, she’s 00:37:00camera shy—not really [laughter]—but, you know, my grandmother delivered her. She was one of the biggest ones in the family. And I think you were eight pounds?

ABD: No, no, no, nine pounds, three ounces.

LBP: Nine pounds and three ounces, which is another rarity, like your brother.

ABH: Yeah.

LBP: But one thing about it: my grandmother delivered her with no complications, and I don’t know if my grandmother lost any babies that she delivered. Her sister— ABD: But Mama went into labor before she got there.

LBP: Oh, that’s true.

ABD: So she had to send for Mo Lily.

LBP: To get her.

ABD: And because I was a large baby. That was probably the complication, you know, because— LBP: She was so big.

ABD: —I was a big baby, and I was born— LBP: And my grandmother wasn’t there to go and get her, and get the water and whatnot, but they found her, because she’s over there right now. [Laughter.] RL: And she’s gonna join us.

ABH: Yeah, ’cause she wasn’t feeling too well, and now she is, so— RL: Make sure we— LBP: This 00:38:00is our sister, Annetta Donovan [sp?], joining us on camera.

ABD: Welcome [ph].

RL: How do you spell your name?

ABD: A-N-N-E-T-T-A Butler Donovan, Annetta Butler Donovan.

RL: Well, we’re glad to have you. Your grandmother died in 1976, is that right?

ABD: Seventy-seven.

RL: Seventy-seven. How long did she deliver babies? Her entire life, or—?

LBP: Forty years. She delivered babies for 40 years. We had her retirement celebration, a retirement picture. This was a part of it, as well. For 40 years she delivered babies in the neighboring counties of Hinds, Yazoo, and I believe Warren, which is goin’ toward Vicksburg.

RL: Did she train other midwives? I’m guessing many women in the profession looked up to her.

LBP: Yeah, I’m sure she trained them, because, like 00:39:00I said, she was a part of this midwife, you know, consortium. That’s how they got her into it. They knew she was brave. They knew she was smart. They knew she was courageous. So they probably recruited her. So I’m sure she shared her knowledge with another younger person.

RL: And I’m a Civil Rights historian by training—that’s what I teach at Jackson State—and you mentioned her involvement in the movement. What do you remember about what she did in the movement? You mentioned Dr. King, and— LBP: Well, there was a Poor People’s Campaign. Dr. Martin Luther King came to our town of Edwards, Mississippi in 1967, I believe. And my grandmother was a spokesman, spokesperson, to talk to Dr. King about integration in 1967. He came down to the Poor People’s Campaign in Edwards, and my grandmother was the one talking to him. I met him also. I was 00:40:00in the third grade.

RL: And what did she say to him? Do you—? Any—?

LBP: She told him about how the Blacks were treated. They wanted to know— Because my grandmother had a great relationship with both Blacks and whites, and I already shared with you that people would get credit based on her name, so they wanted her to talk, because they thought that her perspective would be fair. So they asked her to tell them about how the Blacks were being treated during integration.

RL: And I’m guessing she didn’t sugarcoat it.

LBP: No. [Laughter.] You know that.

ABH: No, no, no, no, no.

LBP: We’ve already told you.

ABH: Oh my God, oh my God, no. She told it like it was. Yes.

ABD: No, Mo Lily was really fearless, and she spoke her mind. Yeah, she was really her own person, and, as Fay was saying earlier, she really had all of the 00:41:00attributes that was needed to be good at what she did, you know, because she was very brave. And I think that’s one of the things that we remember about her. I mean, I do. I remember her walking from her house up to where we lived, and she always had these bags. She always had bags and things like that. And we knew whenever Mo Lily would come, if anything was going on we knew everything was gonna be all right. You know, she was all about order— LBP: That’s what I told you.

ABD: —and if my daddy was at work, or Mama was at home with us, and she wasn’t feeling good, once Mo Lily arrived— LBP: It was fine.

ABD: Because we knew we had to obey. [Laughter.] LBP: Correct.

ABD: And 00:42:00she didn’t have to say anything. She just— LBP: She was just strict in her demeanor. She didn’t go around, “Do this, do this, do this.” It was her demeanor, just her structure, her stand, her aura. It just generated order, preparation.

RL: And most of you would’ve been in school and lived through desegregation. What did she feel about school desegregation?

LBP: She felt like the best teachers for us were teachers that looked like us. And— RL: And what happened to those teachers?

LBP: The ones that looked like us?

RL: Mm-hmm [affirmative], and after desegregation.

MBP: Well, the schools that I attended, we didn’t really have to deal with desegregation.

LBP: We had segregated schools. We went to all-Black schools.

MBP: Yeah, we went to all-Black schools. I went to an all-Black school, from first grade through high school.

LBP: All of us. All of us.

ABD: Because when the— LBP: Integration.

ABD: —when they integrated the schools 00:43:00in Edwards, you know, there was a school for the white kids, and there was a school for us, and we loved our school, and we had great teachers— LBP: Of course.

ABD: —and they cared about us, and we all excelled in school, and— But when they integrated the schools, and we remember some of our friends— LBP: They went— ABD: —ended up going to the white schools— LBP: Flunked.

ABD: —but it was difficult for them because of how they were treated. One thing Christine [sp?]—well, one of our friends—told me is that when they went to the white school, the food was so good there. They had good food for them.

LBP: Oh my God.

ABD: Yes. They had good food for them. But they all flunked.

LBP: Yeah, they flunked.

ABD: They all flunked. But we had good teachers, and our teachers were— It was like an extension of our parents, because— LBP: And let me add one thing.

ABD: Yes.

LBP: Our teachers also went to church with us.

ABD: They went to church with us.

LBP: So they knew our parents. They knew our grandmother, which was like a pillar 00:44:00of our community. So us, as Butlers, we had a standard that we had to adhere to, not just in academics but in our behavior, in who we were. You know, we’re Lily Butler’s granddaughters, you follow me?

MBP: And also what happened in school, it was reported to our parents by the teachers directly. So we would say, “We’d rather for you to do a discipline rather than tell our mother and our daddy about it.” LBP: Exactly. Don’t let Lily Butler know.

MBP: “It’s gonna be a problem.” Yes, exactly.

ABD: Yeah, but Mo Lily was just a pillar throughout the community, and I remember growing up, and being a young person growing up, I really did not even understand the significance of having her as a grandmother, but just listening to everything here, it’s like now I’m really proud, because— LBP: I was embarrassed.

ABD: Yeah.

LBP: I was embarrassed growin’ up, because every time somethin’ was over, she wanted to talk 00:45:00some more. [Laughter.] ABD: Mo Lily always wanted to get up and talk.

LBP: You know what I’m saying? It’s like, it’s over now. What is this about? And I’m growin’ up with that, you know, and then I’ve got that name, Lily. So I was so embarrassed by my grandmother that I want to make it up now, because she was so wonderful, but because I was kinda caught up in, “Oh my God, my grandmother, there she is again—” MBP: We were children. We didn’t appreciate it.

LBP: “—she wants to make us do this.” I was just, like, not really appreciative, like my sister said. But when I tell people about my grandmother, they always say, “They named you right. Lily. Lily is one to [ph] take over.” ABD: And that’s why we said Lily would be the primary spokesperson, because, as you can see, she has a lot of knowledge, because she would tell me things. “Well, did you know this about Mo Lily? Did you know this? Did you know this?” MBP: Exactly.

ABD: And 00:46:00I’m like, how did Fay get all of that information? [Laughter.] She’s like, “Well, do you remember that?” I says, “No, I don’t remember.” But you’re sitting here and hearing everything. I am so proud— LBP: I am, too.

ABD: —to be part of that legacy, and it just makes me want to— ABH: I have just named her the official spokesperson.

ABD: Spokesperson. She’s the spokesperson.

ABH: She’s it. She’s it.

ABD: Yeah, but we come from—our legacy— LBP: Because I love you.

ABD: Yes, I’m proud of it.

LBP: I am, too.

ABD: And, like I said, growing up, you know, Mo Lily was—everybody— LBP: Oh my God, all the kids were scared to death of her in the community.

ABD: And my mother used to say— LBP: My mother loved her.

ABD: —she would call Lily and I, “You’re just like Lily Butler. You go from house to house and eat.” Because we had a lot of friends, and we would go to our friends’ house and eat. So Mo Lily had the name. “Well, you know, Lily Butler likes to eat.” LBP: She’d make her own food after she delivered the babies.

ABD: She’d make her own food. And that was something, you know, as a child you would kind of be embarrassed, but now I’m like— LBP: Very proud.

ABD: I’m very proud to be a part of Lily Parker 00:47:00 Butler.

RL: Well, this has been wonderful. I mean— LBP: Thank you.

RL: —this is absolutely fabulous, and I think we could probably keep talkin’ about her for a very long time. [Laughs.] LBP: We could.

ABH: I, too, now see I should’ve been a midwife instead of a librarian— ABD: That’s what I’m thinking.

ABH: —and a teacher, but I don’t think there are any midwives— LBP: No, we got an RN, though.

MBP: But my daughter’s an RN.

LBP: We got RN, and her—your sister is RN.

ABH: Exactly.

LBP: So we got that nursing. But we’ve got in our family commitment, and it doesn’t matter if we’re in whatever profession. We are a family of committers. We learned that from our grandmother. And if you ever have a chance to go up to Gary, Indiana, her daughter, Barbara Butler King [sp?], is 90, comin’ on 91, and she can tell you a lot, just like her sister.

MBP: A wealth of knowledge, wealth of knowledge.

LBP: If we can get up there to Chicago, I’m going sometime soon, because, you know, she always charges me with 00:48:00this stuff to do: get the picture, do the write-up, do this. And obedience is better than sacrifice is why I’m obedient.

ABH: Now, there will be something in her honor here, or someplace else?

RL: There is plans in place for the Scott Ford House, which was a house, a family of midwives, and Dr. Alferdteen Harrison is attempting to restore it, turn it into a museum, and, of course, there is the program today, so— LBP: Okay, cool.

RL: —thank you all.

ABH: And I’m wondering—thank you.

LBP: Are we missing the program today?

RL: Not yet.

ABH: I’m wondering if her sister would release those— LBP: What?

ABH: —that she— If Barbara would donate those to them.

LBP: Yes, she’ll donate the artifacts.

RL: That’ll be great. We will definitely be in touch about that.

LBP: Well, we gotta get up there and get ’em.

RL: Well, thank you all.

LBP: I have to tell you thank you for your work.

MBP: All right, thank you. Thank you.

RL: Absolutely. Thank you all.

LBP: And it’s most impressive on what you’re doing.

RL: Well, thank you.

LBP: Keep up the good work. [END OF INTERVIEW]