Dr. Freda McKissic Bush

DR. FREDA MCKISSIC BUSH: My name is Freda McKissic Bush.

INTERVIEWEE LAST NAME: Okay. Will you spell the second part for me?

FMB: McKissic?

Q: Yeah.

FMB: Capital M, small C, capital K-I-S-S-I-C.

Q: Very good. Okay, thank you. Now, Dr. Bush, tell me a little bit about you, from as early as you want to up til now. [Laughter.] Okay?

FMB: Well, I was born and raised in Pine Bluff, Arkansas, the fifth of nine children. My father was a Baptist preacher. My mother was a domestic, as 00:01:00well as a schoolteacher for a number of years. My mother was my inspiration to go into the health field, in that she loved, absolutely loved, being pregnant, she loved having children, and she considered it was her job, if you will, to care for us, and to raise us, as my father would say, [in the fear and happiness of the Lord?]. [Side conversation] Q: Okay, 00:02:00all right.

FMB: My mother and father loved children. In fact, that was part of their responsibility and reverence for the Lord, when he said, “Be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the Earth.” My father was a farmer. He was born and raised in Arkansas, and grew up not only with regular things you would consider in the—I’m about to cough. [Coughs.] Q: Okay. You need your water? [Video break] Q: Make a statement. [Laughs.] FMB: Oh. I just said my father was a farmer from the delta of Arkansas, and so even when 00:03:00we moved to Pine Bluff he continued to farm, had a farm in the backyard, and anybody who would have a vacant field, he would get their permission to plant a garden, and harvest it, and we were the workers, if you will. But my mom just loved having children, so whenever she had a child, she said her arms would just jerk and yearn for the carrying the baby. She had the babies at home. She breastfed. Actually, my father delivered me at home, because the midwife [laughs] didn’t arrive in time, and so when they came, I was fine. But that’s my upbringing, was a woman who loved being a woman, loved caring for the children and having the children. She breastfed us all til we were about two years 00:04:00of age. And I’ll tell you a little story; I don’t know if you would— Q: Yes.

FMB: —use it or not. But the story goes that before I was conceived, my mother, after she had the third child, had problems with bleeding, and the doctor had told her that she would have to have a hysterectomy, because he had done all he could to stop it. And she said no, she did not want a hysterectomy. So my mother was listening to a radio evangelist one Sunday. She stayed home from church. As I said, my daddy was preaching, so he went to church. And he asked, “If you need prayer, put your hand on the radio,” which she did, and she prayed. And she said the bleeding stopped at 00:05:00that moment. I was the next child that was conceived and born, and so the story goes that the devil was trying to stop my birth, [laughs] and I was the one who became a nurse first, then a certified nurse midwife, and then, ultimately, an OB/GYN physician— Q: Beautiful.

FMB: —and have delivered thousands of babies, and have cared for countless women.

Q: That is awesome.

FMB: Well, that’s the way we were raised: to believe in the Lord, and to also help others, and that’s my family heritage.

Q: Okay, tell me about your church upbringing.

FMB: My father, again, being a Baptist preacher, he pastored many 00:06:00churches, and usually had more than one at a time, but ultimately when we settled in Pine Bluff he had the one congregation, Calvary Baptist Church, that he preached and pastored. But— Q: Is this Pine Bluff, Arkansas?

FMB: Pine Bluff, Arkansas.

Q: Okay. Okay.

FMB: Pine Bluff, Arkansas. And we got involved, of course, in the choir, in the Junior Missionary Society, and Vacation Bible School. And I tell you, we loved Vacation Bible School, because for that week, not only would we play and color and create things that we could take home, but we also learned, I would say, the basics about the Bible, explained in very simple terms, not just like Sunday school or BTU training, but you got to make things that 00:07:00reminded you of the lessons that you learned. So we always enjoyed Vacation Bible School. Even so, when my brothers and sisters had their children, and we grew up and went away, every summer we sent our children, all the cousins, back to Pine Bluff, and my mother and father would house them in their home, and take them to Vacation Bible School that week, and there would be pallets everywhere because there were not enough beds [laughter] for them to all sleep in. And it’s amazing, but our children looked forward to that week. They called it Cousin Week, not just Vacation Bible School. And our children are still close friends with their cousins, even to this day, and they have their children. And, 00:08:00matter of fact, they’ve been trying to get me to do what my folks did. “Why don’t you have all the kids in the summer?” [Laughter.] Q: Oh! A man has really got to love children to entertain all those cousins and whatever a whole week.

FMB: Well, they felt it was their responsibility to make sure that they became Christians, because it was not a desire of theirs that any should perish, and they wanted to see them all in Heaven, come to greet them someday.

Q: That is great. That’s awesome. [Laughs.] Okay, now let’s talk about midwives.

FMB: Okay. Well, let me just tell you: when I was growing up, because of my mother’s positive experience about pregnancy, childbirth, and child rearing, I decided at age six that I wanted to be a nurse, and I wanted to help others 00:09:00in the health profession. So when I graduated from high school, I was 16 years old, and we were looking for a place that I could go to get my nurse’s training. Now, I will tell you this: going to college was not an option in my family. Okay. Actually, my mother was one of my greatest inspirations. She, as I said, was a domestic, but she went to college, taking a course here and a course there. And when she graduated from college, she was nine months pregnant with her ninth child. She walked across the stage, got a standing ovation, and all of us children were there. As a matter of fact, I 00:10:00vividly remember her having to walk to school, which was about eight or more blocks from where we lived in Pine Bluff, and she had this P.F. Flyer wagon that she put the smaller kids in, and she would pull them over a gravel road to college. Now, it was AM&N College at that time; it’s UAPB. But when she would get there, she would leave the young ones in the wagon or in the hall, and the janitors would watch for them while she was in class.

Q: Beautiful.

FMB: So that was my inspiration, if you would. [Laughs.] Q: That is all right.

FMB: And, of course, Daddy told us that we were all going to college, and he said we could go by scholarship, or we could go by loan, or we could work our way through, but we had no option [laughter] but to go to college.

Q: That 00:11:00is great.

FMB: And so when I finished, I’m looking for a nursing school, and at the time I was not aware of any nursing schools in Arkansas that would accept “Negro students.” That’s what we were called then. And so I applied to Dillard, Hampton, you know, Tuskegee, all out of state, but remember: I was only 16 when I graduated. And Mama kept saying she couldn’t see herself putting me on a train with a one-way ticket to college, and not knowing when she would see me again. And so she kept looking in Arkansas. We found nursing schools, but they didn’t accept Negros. And finally, she went to the University of Arkansas in Little Rock, and to the School of Nursing, talked with the dean, 00:12:00and the dean said they had started taking Negro students, and so that’s where I ended up going. I was—[pause] At the time, the school was integrated, but we had to do our first two years at the University of Arkansas in Fayetteville, and the schools were still segregated as far as housing, and so we lived off campus. And I guess I’m making a long story short— Q: But that’s all right. [Laughs.] FMB: Anyway, that’s where I did my first two years, was in Fayetteville, and then I got to come to the University of Arkansas School of Nursing in Little Rock, and I completed there in the four years, and graduated 00:13:00with honors.

Q: Beautiful. Beautiful.

FMB: I loved it, caring for the women, when I was in the clinical rotation, but it disturbed me when I would see the women yellin’ and hollerin’ and cussin’ their babies and their labor, which was so foreign to what I had seen my mother do. And even though she had her babies at home, except for the last two—by then, they had people coming to the hospital—she was still just positive, positive about childbirth, and labor, and that was foreign to me. And so I determined then that I was going to get additional education to try to help these ladies have a more positive experience with the labor and the birthing process, so that it would carry over 00:14:00into their care for the children, once they were home.

And so, fast forward, I ended up being a clinical instructor at the University of Arkansas School of Nursing, and left there to get my certified nurse midwifery training, and master’s in nursing, from Columbia University in New York. I loved it. I loved helping the women prepare for the birth. I loved helping them learn about their bodies, so that they wouldn’t be frightened. I loved the smiles on their faces when they would say, “I didn’t know that. I didn’t know that.” [Laughter.] And I loved actually delivering the babies. I mean, being with the woman, helping her understand, so that she looked more forward 00:15:00to it, being there to bring the baby out, escort the baby, if you would, and give it to the mother, which she—a lot of them would immediately put the baby to breast, because we encouraged them to go to childbirth classes. It was just a wonderful experience for me.

Q: Beautiful. Beautiful.

FMB: So I did that from 1970 to about ’77.

Q: Okay. Beautiful. Okay, well, what about the midwives and nurses training and all that?

FMB: Well, to be perfectly honest with you, I am a certified nurse midwife, but when I left New York—I said I did that until then—I moved to Jackson, Mississippi, and I became director of the nurse midwifery program here in Jackson at that time. And we worked with 00:16:00the midwives who delivered babies in the home, and we helped them learn more scientific information, and we helped them also to teach this to the mothers, so that they would be better able to care for themselves and for their children. And it was a very positive experience for the mothers, of course, and the midwife. Mostly, I did it in—it was done in Lexington, and in Hollandale, and in Vicksburg.

Q: Okay.

FMB: Yes.

Q: Okay. All right. So in Vicksburg, would you have served the Satartia area?

FMB: Don’t do me like that. [Laughter.] I don’t know.

Q: It’s a little village. Used 00:17:00to be [Gallatin?], but I think the last reading of the last census, there were, like, 59 people there— FMB: Oh, no.

Q: —so they had dubbed it a village. [Laughs.] FMB: I actually worked at Kuhn Hospital.

Q: Okay, okay, yeah, I’m familiar with them, with that hospital. My grandparents and my father lived in Vicksburg, and two of my oldest siblings—and that’s where I wanted to know about that—we were birthed out at Satartia. [Laughs.] FMB: Ah. Well, I wasn’t familiar, but I did no home births.

Q: Okay, okay, all right. So everything went to—you took all of your cases to the hospital, or to the clinic.

FMB: To the hospital. To the hospital. Now, there were others who did home births, but I did not.

Q: Okay. Were you a part of the— FMB: We— Q: Yeah, now, I cut you off. Go ahead.

FMB: No, I was just gonna say, we worked with the granny—we called them lay midwives at that time. [Coughs.] [Video break] FMB: We 00:18:00helped educate the lay midwives in caring for the babies, in, again, educating the mothers, and many of them—we kept statistics on the outcomes, and we actually—there was a published article showing that the outcomes for the babies improved significantly with the additional training that was being done. And they actually were responsible for coaching the moms through the first six weeks postpartum, and at six weeks postpartum they’d come back to the hospital. If everything’s okay, then they would be released.

Q: Where can I find that document?

FMB: [Coughs.] I’ll have to look 00:19:00for one. I know the public relations department at the university at one time had copies of them, but I have not a clue now.

Q: Okay, okay. All right. Okay. Anything else you want to tell me?

FMB: Um— Q: So you came during the time—came to Mississippi during the time they were requiring certification for midwives, right? They had to go to school and get some training, then they’d become cert— FMB: Yes. So the lay midwives, or the granny midwives, were then, like, the—I wouldn’t say nurses aides, but they were the ones that we educated to work with the mothers, giving them more information on the labor, the birthing process, and 00:20:00caring for the babies postpartum. So they were actually assigned to work with them up until six weeks postpartum. The Health Department actually trained them and schooled them prior to the certified nurse midwives working with them on sanitation, hygiene, caring for their bags, and things like that. And so the Health Department had started doing that prior to my coming, and the nurse midwifery program at the University Medical Center is where we trained them more on the care for the mother and baby after delivery.

Q: Okay, okay. Very good, very good. So this was going on what area? Like, 19—?

FMB: I came 00:21:00in ’74, ’75. Yeah, and we, like I said, we were in Vicksburg, Hollandale, Mound Bayou, Lexington. Those were the areas.

Q: Yeah, that’s good. All right. Well, Mound Bayou had, at that time, a clinic there, then.

FMB: That is correct.

Q: Okay. Okay, very good. Very good.

FMB: Yeah. And most of us, like I said, were certified nurse midwives, that worked in the hospital at that time. Now, after I worked for a period of time as a certified nurse midwife, as I like to say, I hungered and thirsted no more, and so that was when I made the decision to become a physician. So I left there, the university, at 00:22:00that time, went to Jackson State, and got my premed requirements completed, and then [laughter] gained admission to the University School of Medicine. And so I completed four years there, in medical school, and I went to the University of Tennessee and did my board certification, did my residency. So I left medical school here, after completing the University of Mississippi, went to the University of Tennessee in Memphis, and completed my four years for obtaining my— Q: Okay. 00:23:00Very good. Very good.

FMB: Well, I’m just trying to think—[Laughs.] I’m not sure what I was about to say, so you can cut this out, but I did four years at the University of Mississippi, getting my MD degree, and then did four years at the University of Tennessee, and finished my residency, and began working as an OB/GYN. And so I became Board-certified in obstetrics and gynecology, and have continued to work there. So one of the things that I say—people say, “Well, why did you—why didn’t you just leave nurse—I mean, leave high school and go to medical school and, you know, skip all that?” My response is I wouldn’t be who I am today 00:24:00if I had done that. I had to become a nurse, and fulfill my desire to work with women directly, as my mother had inspired me to do. And it’s because I did that, I say, that I was a different kind of OB/GYN. [Laughs.] People teased me and said I was still a nurse midwife. I was still a midwife. And I said, “Yes, I am,” because that was my motivation for going into the health field in the first place was to work with women, having their babies, so they’d have a positive labor and their child birthing experience, which would roll over into them caring and raising their children. You know, and my mother and father were my inspiration doing that. And 00:25:00so I continued, I say, being a midwife, a nurse midwife, even though I have the OB/GYN certification, [laughter] and was called “doctor.” But I thoroughly enjoyed it. I literally cut my teeth on the vision and the inspiration of being a midwife, which is with mother and child.

Q: Right, right. Oh, that’s why— FMB: And that— Q: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. I guess that’s why your patients fall in love with you.

FMB: Well, that’s why when I became aware of this project, I knew I had to be a part of it. And because it’s so vital that we don’t forget, A, where we come from; and B, that we don’t forget the contributions that were made during that time, and 00:26:00wonderful experiences that occurred because of the passion and the love that the midwives had for their patients, the mothers and the children, and the families. It wasn’t just about here’s a baby; it was the whole family that was of concern.

Q: Beautiful. Yes, yes. Okay. Well, is there anything else you want to share? Just think of anything that— FMB: Um— Q: Can you think of, or do you have a list of midwives someplace?

FMB: I’ll bet probably in some archive the Health Department would probably— Q: Yeah, I’ve got a call in to Ms. Fields for Monday, so I’ll 00:27:00be checking with her for that.

FMB: And I don’t know where the records are for the university program, because it closed after I left, but I’m thinking somebody at the university— Q: Dr. Barnes— FMB: Dr. Barnes may even— Q: —may be able to tell.

FMB: —may be able to do that, yeah. Because I know those records have to be somewhere. They’re probably on microfiche by now, but still, those records should be somewhere.

Q: Yeah. Right.

FMB: Even the article that we were talking about should be able to be retrieved.

Q: Right.

FMB: [inaudible].

Q: Okay. Very good. Very good. You’re still working, right?

FMB: No, I actually retired last year, and if you consider from the time I completed nursing school to the time I retired—let’s see, 00:28:00I was 20 years old when I finished nursing school, and I was 70 years old when I finished—when I retired. So I have about 50 years [laughs]— Q: Okay, that’s beautiful.

FMB: —of practice in— Q: That is beautiful.

FMB: —medicine, in nursing and midwifery.

Q: That is beautiful. I’m sure you have inspired a lot of women to go into nursing.

FMB: Well, I have, not only into nursing, but nurse practitioner, as well as medicine. And I have to attribute my entrance into healthcare—because most my family are teachers. We have a lawyer. We have—I’m trying to see—working in education, a social worker. I have three brothers 00:29:00that are preachers, so they took after my father. And my point is, though, that I was the only one that went into the health field, and I really believe it was because of my observing how my mother responded to being pregnant, labor, delivery, and childrearing. It was her calling, and it inspired me significantly. As a matter of fact, I’ll tell you this little story. My husband and I both are the fifth of nine, and so we decided we wanted five children, [laughter] to at least replace ourselves. And so when we decided that I would go to medical school, we had two children. And so we decided, well, 00:30:00we better hurry up and have the third, so while I was at Jackson State, doing my premed requirements, we had a third child. [Laughter.] And then, my sophomore year of medical school, we had a fourth child.

Q: Okay. That’s great.

FMB: Well, I mean, I figured I couldn’t do it once I got, you know, further along, and—yeah. And then my senior year we had a miscarriage, so we did get five children, but four lived.

Q: That is beautiful.

FMB: But my mother came and stayed with me for the birth of each of those children, and that last child that I had—so they drove from Arkansas; my daddy brought her over—it was during exam time, and so my father 00:31:00would drive me to school, [laughter] to take my exam, would wait for me in the hall, and then take me back home. And Mama was caring for the children, and for the child, the baby, while I was gone to class. They say I was the only student I’d ever had to have their daddy still bringin’ them to school. [Laughter.] Q: That is awesome. That is awesome.

FMB: But that’s my positiveness about childbearing, but also about the midwife experience, you know, because of my mother and her positive experiences. It inspired me.

Q: That is great.

FMB: And so that’s why I became a nurse and a midwife, and subsequently became a physician, so I could do more.

Q: Tell me, now: when you were working with the ladies, did you wear a uniform, anything, 00:32:00a [cap?]?

FMB: Yes. Yeah, we wore a uniform, similar to the public health nurses, but I don’t remember that the lay midwives wore—I don’t think any of us wore white. It was kind of a blue, checkered, something. I really don’t remember. Let me stop it. Let me stop, so I won’t be telling a story.

Q: And everybody had some kind of bag.

FMB: Everybody.

Q: What color was yours?

FMB: Black. Little black bag.

Q: Well, and tell me about the utensils that were in your bag. What did you need and use?

FMB: Actually, I did most of my—I did my deliveries in the hospital, so there was no specific bag. And, of course, there’s the regular utensils that you would use, but the midwives 00:33:00had—the lay midwives did have—had it laid out. And that information you could get almost from anywhere. Perhaps some of the others that you’ve interviewed could give you those details.

Q: Mm-hmm [affirmative], okay, okay. Very good. I am so excited, and thank you so much for doing this interview.

FMB: Well, I appreciate you for letting me share this story. I recognize it’s a little unique and different from the lay midwives. My journey is my journey, but I was so pleased to be able to tell their story. I got an opportunity to speak at a midwife conference in Geneva, Switzerland, and to tell the story of the University Medical Center, working with the midwives, the midwifery program, and the lay midwives, and the fact that, working with 00:34:00the midwives, teaching them about sanitation, and caring for the mothers, and teaching the mothers, and being with them up to six weeks, had actually reduced the infant mortality rate in Mississippi. And so that was a positive thing, I feel, where the certified nurse midwives, which I was, had contributed to raising the level of education and care that the midwives, the lay midwives, were giving, and the mothers, the children, the families were benefitting, were benefitting from this information.

Q: That is great. Now that you’re retired, are you doing any volunteer work in that area?

FMB: No, I’m not. [Laughter.] Actually, let me tell you what I am doing: I am 00:35:00working with an organization called the Medical Institute for Sexual Health, trying to help young people have a better view, a better understanding, and therefore better behavior, healthier behavior, about their sexuality, because I would say lack of knowledge. My people perish for a lack of knowledge. They don’t fully understand. And so I’m working with them to help not only the young people to get a better understanding of sex and risk, but what they can do to avoid and prevent the consequence, the negative consequences. Also working with parents, helping parents know how to talk to their young people about sex, and, again, behaviors that will avoid the risk. Yeah, 00:36:00so that is almost a full-time job [inaudible].

Q: I know. I know.

FMB: So people say I’m really not retired, because I’m still out teaching and working with that specialization, helping young people make better decisions with the information.

Q: Okay. And what did you say that organization’s name is?

FMB: [Coughs.] I’m sorry. It is the Medical Institute—that organization?

Q: Right, right.

FMB: Is the Medical Institute for Sexual Health.

Q: Okay. And is sponsored by UMC, or—?

FMB: No, it’s in Austin, Texas. Austin, Texas.

Q: Oh, okay, great. I have a granddaughter down there.

FMB: Well, 00:37:00you must give me her name. I’m there monthly. I’m in Austin once a month.

Q: Once a month?

FMB: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Q: Okay, and when you’re there, you go to the hospital, or to a clinic?

FMB: I actually work with anybody who will allow us—well, I should say anybody who will invite us. So I work with churches, I work with medical organizations, pregnancy care centers, as well as outpatient public health department. I do not work with hospitals. So this is an educational process.

Q: Right, right, okay. Very good. Okay, I like that, and I want to talk to you a little bit more about that. [Laughter.] FMB: Okay.

Q: Okay. Thank you so much for having shared all this good information with us. Now, if you have any artifacts or anything that you want to share—did you—?

FMB: Well, I’m gonna look for that article. I 00:38:00really am. I’m going to look for the article.

Q: Okay. Okay. Okay, very good. Thank you for that. All right, we’re signing off, and I’ve been speaking with Dr. Freda Bush. [END OF INTERVIEW]