Mary Joyce Sanders

STEVENS: This is Mattie Stevens, and I’m interviewing Miss Mary Joyce Sanders today for the Scott Ford Project. It is February 27, 2018, and we’re here in the Smith Robertson Museum. Okay, Miss Sanders, how are you doing today?

SANDERS: Quite well.

STEVENS: All right, well first thing I’d like you to do is gimme your name, and spell the last part, Mary Joyce—well spell the whole thing so we know, sometimes people hook the Mary-Joyce, so it’s two words, right?

SANDERS: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

STEVENS: Okay, spell that out for us, and then tell me a little bit—well tell me a lot about yourself. [Laughs.] SANDERS: Hello everyone, I’m Mary Joyce Sanders. It’s 00:01:00M-A-R-Y, J-O-Y-C-E, S-A-N-D-E-R-S. I’m from Jackson, Mississippi, attended schools here, elementary, middle, and high school. I attended Jackson State University, I received my undergrad as well as grad degrees. I’m a speech communications major, English, have a degree in educational leadership. I enjoy life as you probably can tell, or probably know. I have—I’m a widow, and I was married to Demosthenes Sanders. We have two daughters, fully-grown children, Latarsha and Marnika. And we have three grandchildren, two granddaughters and one grandson. They too are products, my girls are products of Jackson 00:02:00public schools, as well as Jackson State, with their own families now.

STEVENS: Okay, and you grew up in Jackson, you’ve been— SANDERS: I grew up in Jackson, I grew up in Jackson, years ago. Still growin’, though.

STEVENS: Okay, [laughs] all right. Well tell me a little bit about your work, what you’ve done, and if you have any travels to share. I know you busy.

SANDERS: My work, I used to work for the National Council of Negro Women, back in the day when Dr. Jesse Mosely recruited me to come on board and work with the Council. We assisted Dr. Moseley where we could from the Daycare Homes Project, where we did group homes, daycare homes, and the centers 00:03:00also. We traveled with her extensively to different areas, wherever Dr. Heis and Dr. Mosely we need you here, she would contact, [inaudible], she didn’t have to contact us though 'cause we were right up next to her like we were her own children, which we were when we looked at her, like she was a surrogate mother to us as well. Washington DC, New York, different states in different places we attended, and we enjoyed the travels. We enjoyed the work that we were doing for the Council as well.

STEVENS: And that’s the National Council?

SANDERS: Of Negro Women, the National Council of Negro Women. And then we brought our daughters in the fold for the National Council of Negro Women, Jack [sp?] and Marnika and Latarsha, they grew up together, and they also did the work of the Council as well.

STEVENS: Very good, okay, and your work work, tell us about what you’ve done as work work. [Laughter.] SANDERS: That’s cute, the work work. Okay, for the 00:04:00Nursing Midwifery program, where I started when I was a little bit young, maybe let’s just say a lot younger.

STEVENS: What program was that?

SANDERS: The program that we’re with? It was the University Medical Center, and they had a program where they were trying to see the services of the doctors versus the service of the nurse midwives, which one, the qualities, they were trying to find out the quality of both services, and so that’s what I did. I also traveled with that program. They even sent me out of town to get training, because you know, I’m not in the medical field. So they sent me out of town to get some training in California, different places, because who am I to evaluate the doctors and nurses when I don’t have a degree or any background in medicine, but it worked out fine. And basically what I did was interview the parent, the mothers of the children. 00:05:00And I would ask them questions.

Now you know, this was back in ’70s, I don’t have one piece, Miss Stevens, of that paperwork. Some of the persons, if I remember, they wanted to know, would you prefer a doctor versus a nurse-midwife. And they gave me their answers, and I wrote it as they said, and pretty much when need be, that’s who they went, the doctors were, or the nurse-midwife were. And in the end, just make it short, they were evenly yoked, from versus the nurse midwives and the doctors. Some of the ladies would say that they preferred a woman, because they understood and they knew their bodies better, because they were a woman. Then there were some who said, they preferred a doctor, because to them, they had more training, or more knowledgeable about what would happen if they came into 00:06:00a situation. But basically, when they finished the evaluation, it was evenly yoked.

STEVENS: Okay, very good, very good. Okay, now tell me what other work did you do for pay?

SANDERS: I worked for Jackson Public School. That was after, a long time afterwards. I worked for Jackson Public School system. I taught school at Blackburn Middle School. I also worked for state and federal programs, I was one of the coordinators in their Safe and Drug Free program, which is still in existence, [inaudible] state and federal programs in Jackson Public Schools as well. And I enjoyed that that too gave me a wide range of working with students, which is what I like working with our youth, trying my best to keep them off drugs, teach ’em at the same time the dos and don’ts, and 00:07:00I know they listen, cause when I see ’em on the streets even today, they say some of the quotes that I would say in the classroom. I like writing poetry as well, and I pride myself on some of the chil—students that had, on essay writings, not that I wrote it, but I encouraged them to participate, and guided them in that direction as well. And then I retired, I retired in 2015. And I’ve been—I’m just enjoying my retirement. I enjoy my— STEVENS: Probably work more now than you did— SANDERS: Yes, Miss Stevenson, just like now. [Laughs.] Yeah, but I enjoy, I enjoy everything.

STEVENS: Yeah, very good, very good. What years—do you remember the year that you were doing the evaluations?

SANDERS: It was in the ’70s. 00:08:00Pretty much like, I said ’71, ’72, up in the area when it had started. And that’s when I got into the program, during that time. I remember Dr. Barnes [sp?], Dr. Frida Bush [sp?], Willanne Albeia [sp?], she was a nurse-midwife. And in fact, Willanne is a classmate of mine from [inaudible] as well.

STEVENS: Dr. Bush, yes, she interviewed the other day. She was registered nurse midwife.

SANDERS: And I was—Willanne Albeia, I remember those three distinctively. But the other names I can’t remember. I charge it to my head now, it’s been a lot of years since those days, but they were very good.

STEVENS: Okay, what year did you graduate from Jackson State?

SANDERS: 00:09:00 1972.

STEVENS: Okay, yeah, I went back in ’72.

SANDERS: Oh, okay, and that’s when I got my undergrad, then I went back for my grad, counseling and education leadership.

STEVENS: Okay, very good. Can you think of anything else you want to say? Or what about your church experiences?

SANDERS: Oh, I’m very active in my church, College Hill Missionary Baptist Church located on Florence Avenue. I’m president of my circle, serve on various committees in the church, evangelism committee, the public relations committee. Excuse me.

STEVENS: You know Miss Melina Dowd [sp?], she was teaching?

SANDERS: Miss Melina, I was with her last night. We have a church meeting last night. In fact, she was also one of my instructors at Jackson State in speech communications, she was one of my instructors. And anytime I have to speak in church, they said oh, this is Miss Dowd, one of her favorite students. 00:10:00I said, you all leave me alone, cause I was her pet too. [Laughs.] But anyway, she’s—I’m going to tell her—I actually will.

STEVENS: Yeah, what about Gwen [sp?] — SANDERS: Chambliss [sp?]?

STEVENS: Did you have— SANDERS: She was not my instructor, but you know, she was on campus when I was there. Miss Dora [sp?] Washington was one of my instructors. Dr. Evans was one of my instructors, taking me way back now.

STEVENS: Yeah, I had my— SANDERS: Oh, okay, is that true for you?

STEVENS: I was one of the first students to graduate at Jackson State in speech communications.

SANDERS: Oh, okay. Okay, well I never—learn something every day now. Yeah, but those are, were my instructors. And then, Miss [sp?] Gentry, Laverne Gentry [sp?] was my grad, in the grad work, so, she was one of my—Dr. Franklin was also one of my instructors over there too. I had a lot of great instructors from, 00:11:00at Jackson State.

STEVENS: I can attest to that, yeah.

SANDERS: But I didn’t know what to major in, she was a speech communication major [inaudible].

STEVENS: Yeah, and then my, I’m going [inaudible], can you think of anything else you wanna share?

SANDERS: Maybe I shouldn’t have this on camera, but anyway, when I had gone down to Pascagoula, [inaudible], I had gone down, I was traveling to Pascagoula. I can’t even remember the name of a clinic, there was a clinic. I had to go to different doctors’ offices. And that’s how I observed what was going on from different parts of the state. Okay, I had gone in, and here I’m a Black, I’m observing.

STEVENS: We need that experience.

SANDERS: I’m observing what, and everybody coming in this clinic, I mean that was in the clinic that was working, all white. When I had come in, they knew I was coming, but they didn’t know—I don’t think they knew I was Black. 00:12:00But I could tell then that somebody was gonna have a problem, and I wasn’t counting on it being me, and it wasn’t me. But, 'cause the maid, she had come to me, she said, if you’re have and problems, I wanna give you my number. I said ma’am, I’m not gonna have any problems, but I do appreciate you. So time, we walked, I walked out that area, one of the nurses had come to me, and she said, are you a nurse? I said, no I’m not. You not a doctor, are ya? I said no I’m not. I said, well can I ask you why are you asking me these questions? It's not on my interview—that you're gonna be interviewing me, I’m the one here to observe you. She said, well can you tell me how can you evaluate what we do here when you don’t have a medical degree?

I said, well first you all, let me just tell you this, then they took me back down to where I’m from. I said, first of all, the 00:13:00University Medical Center wouldn’t have dared send me down here to observe you, if I didn’t have what I needed in my head to observe you. I pulled my pad out, started writing down, 'cause I was writing this conversation here with her. And she—and I said but not one thing about it. I’m the only one from Jackson that observing you. So whatever I put down on this form that I have is what they gonna go with, ma'am. I said, so all my job is to do today in the week that I’m here is just observe what you were doing to our children. Not my children, but to our children. That’s the Black ones that come in here, and the white one as well. I would be looking at whether you make a difference in one baby that come through this clinic.

And from then on, Miss Stevens, it was a new day. Every morning, do you drink coffee? No I don’t. You want a Coke? We can get you a Coke. I said no ma’am. I get, my stuff I brought it with me from 00:14:00Jackson, cause you know, I like know what I’m drinkin’. So, it was a different situation. But the oddest situation in which I had never seen it before, I know this [inaudible] will be on the tape. I mean, I know you’re not taping that. But anyway, the next day, when I got there, and I always stayed at the hotel right, at the LaFont Inn is where I stayed, because it was real close to the clinic, and I stayed on the first floor as well of that hotel, because if something happened, they needed to get to me, since I was by myself. But anyway, a family had come in, this was a Black family, a family had come in and observed that situation, where this little baby, I think the baby if I remember right, it was between six at nine months at this age level. And, but he was born with both a penis and a vagina. And me being me, I had never seen it before, but I couldn’t react 00:15:00like I hadn’t, because otherwise somebody was gonna have to write me up, cause I would have been wrong. But I listened to what they were saying, and they were very curious, I think they were— STEVENS: I hear you, okay.

SANDERS: I’m sorry, I think the nurses was the first time, but the doctor had already seen this child, and I knew that I could observe, I knew that from the way he talked to them. But the nurses in there with me, I’m not the nurse but I’m talking about the nurse that was in there, they gave me the impression that was their first time seeing the baby too. A beautiful child, and I did ask the question, I said, but, like I said, it was my first time seeing, when would you make the determination as to which sex you would, when you do the operation to take one and replace, you know, when are you going to make this final decision? They told they were going to wait until the baby get, at least maybe a year old, so you can see what his or her tendencies were, 00:16:00before they make that type of decision, because you might remove the penis when you should have done something with the vagina.

So they, you know, but they was very respectful to the mother and father. They was very respectful to me, but they did tell ’em that I would be in the room looking at stuff, and they didn’t have no problem with me being in that room, because if they had said I couldn’t be, I couldn’t be. But anyway, they were very receptive of me. I never will forget that situation, that was the oddest, besides the lady asking me how could I observe and evaluate her, that was the most unique situation I had had from my travels in this state. That was my most unique experience. And the doctors was doing that.

STEVENS: That’s very interesting.

SANDERS: It was for me.

STEVENS: And see, most of the time I’m not getting too much of the racial stuff except with the doctors getting not one in the midwives to work, you see what I’m saying? 00:17:00Trying to cut the program out, you know, that kind of, so this is great.

SANDERS: [inaudible] evaluation letter, when they did more, I hadn’t gone to medical school, no I have not. I’m not a doctor, I’m not a nurse midwife, so they wanted to know how could I evaluate them. But I wasn’t there to see, did you put the needle in right. I was in there to see did you put the needle in, so.

STEVENS: Okay, yeah, very good, very good. Anything else you want to tell me about— SANDERS: No, Miss Stevens. Not in this room anyway. [Laughter.] STEVENS: Well if there are some things you needed to— SANDERS: No, I can’t think of anything that I— STEVENS: That you wanna share?

SANDERS: No, that I wanna share. And I will go back and make the statement here, Willanne Anna [sp?], the nurse midwife that I said was my classmate, very dear heart, when I had my—a doctor delivered my baby. 00:18:00But Aunt—Willanne Anna was on the floor. She was like the head nurse or head person in charge. Okay, I never did want to have a baby at night, never did, I don’t care what the doctor, nurse, whatever, I never did want, cause I can envision the lights going out, they called the mechanic to fix the machine. Anyway, they cut my blood vessel, the doctor, it was a doctor, he had cut my blood vessel, which was not my regular doctor, but he had seen me before because that’s the practice of a doctor, you get around to all your patients so you don’t know when they might.

Anyway, this doctor cut my blood vessel, and I mean, at night. But he wasn’t trying to, I know that. But anyway, it was a lotta things happening to me during that time. And they was quick on their feet, cause I said, why is everybody running? Cause they were running. And the lady, one of the nurses told me, said that, the machine, the same thing 00:19:00I saw in my dreams, the machine broke down, but it’s gonna be okay. But they told me, they told me that, because if they had told me they had cut my blood vessel, I would have bled, lost a lotta blood. But two ladies later, Willie Ann, and Anna [sp?] which was that nurse-midwife, not the doctor, Willie Ann, Anna, came into my room. But she came in everyday, you know, all day anyway, because we were, you know, friends and classmates. And she pumped my stomach, so all that, she did that. The doctors all around me, they all over the hospital. But it was Willie Ann Anna the nurse-midwife who came in, and she, well all of 'em that night saved my life anyway, but it was the Lords will. But she pumped my—and it was hurting me so bad, and I told, I was hollering to tell her, I don’t never wanna see her no more in my entire life, it was hurting me just that bad, and I was crying.

And Dr. Will [sp?], which he’s no longer with us, that’s a sweet man, he was a sweet man, he said, he’s on the side of my bed, he said, 00:20:00“Miss Sanders, I heard you didn’t want to see Miss Bayer [sp?] no more in your room. You could hear—you were hollering all up and down the room—all up and down the hall,” I said, I don’t never wanna see her no more. And I said, that’s my classmate, but I don’t never wanna see Will Ann Anna no more a day in my life. She said, well I’m gonna tell you this, if it hadn’t been for Miss Anna, we don’t know what would’ve happened, cause we were preparing you this morning to go back to surgery, cause there was something that happened, and we can’t account for it. So we were gonna take you back to surgery to fix it. But Will Ann saved you from that, 'cause whatever it was, she took care of it. And I got outta that hospital, I had my daughter and my husband, all of my sisters, everybody was around me talk—my older, you know, this was my second daughter. I had them take me shopping, or they had to go get—I had a C-section. I’m forever 00:21:00grateful to her.

STEVENS: Very good. Is she living now?

SANDERS: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

STEVENS: Okay, I’d love to have her— SANDERS: She’s living now.

STEVENS: You think she would interview?

SANDERS: She probably will, but you know.

STEVENS: Do you know— SANDERS: I’ll [inaudible] get in contact with her. And her name is Willanne Albeia [sp?], she’s in Jackson. I owe her a lot.

STEVENS: That’s good, that’s good, you recognize that and you let her know that.

SANDERS: Oh I did, you know, every time I, you know, I did, I really did. And Dr. Webb [sp?], I let him know what I, you know, too, so. Women’s Hospital, that’s where she was, she was working—we were at Women’s Hospital. She worked there, Dr. Webb worked there, and I was the patient.

STEVENS: Okay, very good, thank you so much, okay. [END OF INTERVIEW]