Alma McPherson-Fisher

JANICE K. NEAL-VINCENT: Hello. I’m Dr. Janice K. Neal-Vincent, oral historian for Scott Ford House Incorporated and W. K. Kellogg Foundation. Today’s date is May 7, 2021. I’m accommodated in this video recording by Miss Edna Harris, the videographer. I have a special guest that I’m about to interview, and I would love for her to please state her name. You are?

ALMA MCPHERSON FISHER: Alma Fisher. 00:01:00JNV: Alma Fisher. I have a series of questions for you today regarding your knowledge of Mississippi granny midwives. I understand that when you were growing up, you had an experience with a granny midwife, you and your family, and I would like to know if you would allow me the opportunity to interview you.

AF: You have my great pleasure for this interview, Dr. Neal.

JNV: Thank you very much. So we shall begin the interview process. Can you tell me, first of all, what was the time period when you knew of a granny midwife who worked with you and/or 00:02:00your relatives? Specifically, with whom did she work?

AF: Dr. Neal, the granny midwife that we are speaking about this morning, it’s my grandmother, my maternal grandmother, whose name is Sally Montgomery. She worked with our family during the period of the Depression, the Great Depression, beginning somewhere about, mm, 1929 through 1952. Her work was very profoundly carried over many of the small communities in our areas. 00:03:00JNV: Okay. In what community and/or county did Miss Montgomery live?

AF: She lived in the Welcome [sp?] community. Her house was located in the Welcome community, and we called the little town Learned [pronounced with two syllables].

JNV: Okay. Is that L-E-A-R-N-E-D?

AF: That’s correct. And Learned—we called it—we put the “éd” on it, because it is unique to that group of people, their vernacular and how they spoke it. When we were in the classroom and we came across the word L-E-A-R-N-E-D, the teacher said, You’d better not say, “éd,” put that “éd” on it. It 00:04:00is learned [pronounced with one syllable]. But our town was pronounced Learnéd, and that is unique for us.

JNV: Very good. It’s interesting to know what people can come up with in terms of their own jargon, as opposed to what is pretty much called standard way of doing things.

AF: Amen. [Laughs.] JNV: So that’s a unique expression that your community had. [Laughs.] What was the community and/or the county like? What really was going on during that time? In other words, what were some of the racial relations, if any? What were they all like? What do you recall about them?

AF: Dr. Neal, you know, when I think of racial relations during that time, or even long after, I think about 00:05:00people staying on their side of the street or the railroad track, and the other one staying in the corporated areas of a particular town. And so it was no different from our places of livin’ when we were growing up or when my grandmother was. The midwife—the relationship actually was more of a subservient one for the Blacks and, of course, the plantation owner for the whites. We had a sharecropping kind of living arrangement, where many of the people—the Blacks, I should say—worked under the authorities of 00:06:00the white man in order to make a livin’. And during that time, there probably would be many acreage that the white man allowed the Blacks to work during a season. And so much was expected for rental fees. And that is how many of the relationships evolved and continued until, of course, the land—you know, there were a few Blacks who had land, and their families had gotten the land from their parents, and some of them continued to work that 00:07:00land. But for those who didn’t, it was more of a sharecropping experience for Blacks and whites.

JNV: Okay. That had to be something for a child growing up to see that.

AF: Well, you know—and I want to say this—how much—[clears throat] excuse me—does a child really know about the business of his parent, especially when everything was kind of quiet amongst the Blacks and whites, especially in the homes. One could not express even the feeling sometimes that you may have had about being mistreated, what we call mistreatment, because the parents did not want any 00:08:00kind of, you know, disturbance with the families, because that would’ve meant you may have cut off all of the substance that you were providing me. And so things were kept quite quiet during that time. And we, as children, knew that our dad had gone over to get an extension of the money that had run out during the winter, and he had gone over to the store to get more credit, so that we would have more food to eat. But we did not know, I guess one could say, just how bad that was to our lifestyle, 00:09:00and what we were aspiring to become, because our parents were people who we felt were accepting their condition.

However, what made it so wonderful with our—our parents were really involved in education. My mother had gone to SCI [Southern Christian Institute] when she was a girl, and she knew that she didn’t want her children under someone’s else auspices. She wanted us to get out and learn for ourselves, because she would always say to us that one becomes educated when he can get out and broaden his or her horizon. 00:10:00And there would be no way that our parents would allow us to stay at home, to work the crops for the white man, when school was offering us, calling on us, to come so that we could move further in our lives. So that’s how we actually became, you know, what—and we’ll put it in quotation—“educated.” Our schools that we attended, our high school, our junior colleges—yes, junior colleges; certainly I will put a plug in right now for our junior colleges—they made our lives as exciting as they are now. From junior college, scholarships to the senior colleges, and on and on. As I would say, Dr. Neal, 00:11:00nobody could stop us when we left the junior colleges. We met with so many other people who were just excited about where we were going, and we continued on into, you know, the graduate schools, and returned to our community. I’m a returner. I’m one who returned to the community and gave myself for those who were coming on behind me.

But you didn’t ask about me. You asked about the communities in which my grandmother lived. People were branching out in different areas, and my uncle was one who had acquired land, acquired land after he came back from the military. And that’s where 00:12:00my grandmother was, with my uncle, in the latter part of her practice. And she became the well-known midwife in the Learned, the Utica, the Edwards, and even the Bolton areas of rural Mississippi. And when they tried to get her moved quietly out of her wonderful place that she had almost lived in for, let’s say, for 30 years, she did not balk. She continued to do what she believed the Lord had planned for her to do, and that was to deliver babies, to help mothers in 00:13:00their place of—let’s just say place of no knowledge, or little knowledge, about raising children, and their pre—what do you call it before the baby is born?

JNV: The prenatal care?

AF: Prenatal care, yes. She helped mothers in their prenatal care for their children.

JNV: And did you say that she was doing her work as a midwife for 30 years?

AF: Well, from 1930, about 1929, to 1952. That was 22 years, right?

JNV: Okay.

AF: Well, what I was meaning in the 30 years, even when she was preparing to become a midwife, 00:14:00she had done apprentice and training under her mother. And so many times, she would follow her mother to attend a birth or to catch a baby. So we just have the records of the children that she delivered, and we’re not too sure whether this is the only record, because someone—her sons who had gone to school for this writing—I think they had done a correspondence course for writing, some of that beautiful writings of the names of the people and the birthdates of those who she delivered. But prior to that, I don’t know what she was doing, because that meant if 00:15:00she just started when she was 50 years old, Dr. Vincent, that means that there was a lot of time in between her having her last baby and delivering her first ones. So I’m not too convinced that she had not begun to catch babies before ’30 or ’29.

It was just someone was—and I don’t know if they were writing it down on paper, or how they were recording it, but something tells me in my spirit that she probably had gone to those schools that I guess you would call the—when the nurses began to come out, and they were giving 00:16:00them training on how to do, that these were some of the things that they told them how to do, guidelines that they gave the midwives to follow, and these were a few. There are a few pieces of papers that I have, and I believe even—I’ll check on those to make sure that they were within the time period that I said, ’29 to ’52. But there may be some that preceded ’29. And I would think so, because she was in her—I think that she was actually at the top of her game, as I would say, when she wrote those down, so I think that she was doing something before 00:17:00she was 50 years old.

JNV: Okay. So it sounds like she really had a great interest in her training with, you said, her mother? Her mother training her?

AF: Her mother. Her mother trained her.

JNV: And then when—it sounds like you’re talking about systemic racism when you mentioned the nurses— AF: Yes.

JNV: —coming forth and training. It seems like I remember something about systemic racism when the granny midwife, particularly the African American— AF: Yes.

JNV: —granny midwife, was being trashed through the medical journals by the physicians, and some of them had taken some of her training and learned from it. They went abroad, and they studied obstetrics. They came back, and it was around the time that they—the ’20s and 00:18:00so forth, going on beyond the ’20s—they came back and they started with the hospitals, and channeling the birthing process from all the mothers and the midwives into the hospitals for economic gains. So you said something here about the nurses who came forth, and they were training Miss Montgomery, the midwife.

AF: Yes. You know what I saw? And it’s so interesting. There is a dissertation that was written by this young lady. I believe her name was Toffell. I don’t know specifically. I think I—[references notes] her name is Dominique Tobbell, T-O-B-B-E-L-L. And she has her doctoral dissertation, because 00:19:00she does put PhD. And she indicates that the Black midwives had such a complex history, because there were some—as you said, the doctors, they began to research and form groups to kind of eliminate the Black midwives, trashing them, as you said, saying that they were ignorant and that they were causing more death, maternally and the child’s, the baby’s death, and it was time for some sanitation measures to be effected there. And what the studies here show 00:20:00that the maternal death were less than—especially in the Black communities—than what the doctors, those obstetricians, were doing, because they really did not know about the Black composition, I would suppose, the feminism of the—you know, the way that Black and white women were actually designed.

And they began to study it later on, but the Blacks had been delivering babies during—you know, in the time of their African ancestors, and this was brought over and carried to these people, especially in the rural areas. And 00:21:00I just would like to mention a commonsensical thing: if they had not delivered those babies, who would have delivered the babies? Even as far back in the Bible, we see the midwives and how they were able to tell even the pharaoh, the king, that these Jewish women were so strong that before they could get on the stoop, they had delivered, the babies had dropped, and they could not kill those babies or hold those babies out. So I’m saying there had to be some knowledge of the birthing process long before the 1920s, before the group, the reformers, that they wanted to reform this whole process of 00:22:00having the babies. But then they realized that Blacks did not even have hospital privileges, nor, Dr. Neal, did they have—could the Black patients come into the hospital. So they did allow the granny midwives to continue what they were doing, but with the training by the nurses and by other health professionals, where they had to come to meetings periodically and to renew their license. There were some of these granny midwives who did not come to the meetings, because in order to get over their rural area to the 00:23:00deep, dark dungeons where they lived, it took them a day or so, and they just had more problems. And these people were actually arrested and sometimes put in jail, according to some of what I’ve read.

But I know that this was true, because the saddling up of the horses, and just the gearing up of the sleds and whatever else, kind of modes of transportation that my grandmother used, it was a time before they could get, sometimes, to the mothers who were in labor. And they had to know about it, probably at the first sign of contraction. And the husbands and some men of the families would come and get 00:24:00them, and take them there, sometimes riding the horses of the grandmothers who—it was pretty rough on them, especially a 60- or 65-year-old woman. And it was just a bit much.

But yes, they did attempt to just get rid of the granny midwives at the beginning of these—you know, when they began to look at it, these inspections, and just the sanitation of some of the places and houses, because you know that families, many families, were not staying in mansions, and sometimes the conditions by the Health Department were found to be not really conducive 00:25:00to childbirth and childrearing. But you had to do the best you could. You had to use as much sanitation and scrubbing products in order to get things where there would be no infections, or as less as possible. And so that’s what happened with these doctors, and especially, it was the male Caucasian doctors who were trying to get them into the hospital, get as much money as they could, economic uprise, and get to continue to do what they wanted to do with the money that they acquired from situations that were not 00:26:00good for the Black people, taking everything away.

And, you know, many of the mothers, many of the families, they said no as much as they could, because the midwives were ones who did not even accept—well, I won’t say “accept”—who did not get, receive, any monetary value. Whatever they did, it was not necessarily money. Maybe $20. Someone said that there was one midwife who charged people $20, but then I know my grandmother didn’t charge ’em $20. She did hers in kind. Maybe, you know, some animal, farm animal. They gave her a pig, or they did give her a special cow. And I think I mentioned this on the other one, that she named it Sweetie Pie. 00:27:00I think her name was Sweetie Pie. Maybe not Sweetie Pie, but it was Sweetie something. But anyway, hogs, and greens, and vegetables, all of these things, and some other things they may have given. And one of the ladies that I was reading about, one of the midwives, when they did kinda phase them out, they gave them recognition, you know, programs of recognition, and they came with their nice white uniforms on, with their little caps, little hats. And some of the families that they had delivered would come by and give them gifts, just as if we were retiring, and how people who know 00:28:00us and are very endearing to us, or we were endeared to them, they would come by and let you know that they really appreciate your service.

JNV: Okay. You have said quite a bit here. I have learned so much from what you have shared here regarding the discrimination, and I have a number of questions based on all of that, but you have touched on them, and you have expanded my knowledge regarding the discrimination and the bringing forth of the different ones to keep the granny midwife, so to speak, in her place. And at the same time, the male physician reaping all of the gains, the economic gains. But I’m seeing here, too, from your expression of your grandmother, the 00:29:00African heritage, the tradition, the love that she brought forth in giving of herself within the extended family that comes from Africa, that giving. That giving and the receiving of whatever the goods may be is that the baby was birthed. The baby came forth. The family got blessed. The mother now has her child. And so everybody is happy within the Black family to see that the loved one has come forth and that the mother is now relieved.

AF: Yes. [Laughs.

JNV: That’s really a wonderful story. Well, let me ask you: did Mrs. Montgomery have a certificate?

AF: That I do not know. Just from looking at where 00:30:00they were going, where the midwifery profession was going at this time, I want to find that. I’m going to still be searching so that I can give you a definitive answer the next time I see you, because I don’t see how she could have missed getting a certificate when they were requiring a certificate. And you had people who, I’m sure, were asking the same questions about her, you know, the families: did she have a certificate? She probably even had her license, because she was well practiced, and many of the people, the teachers, schoolteachers—you know, when I looked in her ledger, 00:31:00I saw where children of teachers were birthed by her. And I saw, as I told you, the white guy that my cousins have vivid memories of that story in which my uncle shared about the man who—I don’t know why at this particular time. I’m not sure if she were—well, she was not one of her patients. I think that her health professional was out of town or out of reach, not accessible at this moment. But I will look, because I am going to go to the archives as soon as I feel safe enough to go [holds N95-style mask to face] [laughter] into the archives and look for something that my grandma Sally may 00:32:00have left here for all of us to profit from.

JNV: 00:33:00Okay. That’s very good. And we appreciate your effort to continue to seek the documentation.

AF: Thank you.

JNV: Was she—I think I might already know the answer to this—forced into retirement?

AF: Well, I assume so, and I say this: she would have been about 75 years old—well, yeah, about—as she began to reduce her delivery services, her catching the baby services. I don’t really think—I think hers may have come more so of her 00:34:00just not—her illness, that she may have moved into that area, because for a long time, it was said by a cousin that she was going to—my mother was going to follow her into the midwifery. I think that it may have been that all of these regulations and rules and policies during their initial coming out, that may be why. My mother never told me. I never asked. And you think about this during the time that you cannot ask what we thank God for, the legacy that was handed down, that these 00:35:00may have been some reasons why they were getting caught up in a lot of red tape and they could not do what the wanted to do. But to answer your question, I believe that she may have eventually been reduced to where she was.

However, babies were still being delivered by midwife as long as, I know, about 10 years after she stopped in our little community, in the Learned community. There were some, because she didn’t—I have a first cousin who said my grandmother—“You know, Alma, Grandmother delivered everybody in the family, all the children, except me.” And she’s the youngest in her family. She said, “I don’t know why.” 00:36:00She just said, “I don’t know why.” So we don’t know why, either. We also know that there were some—my mother was ill. She had high blood pressure and whatever you call the—you know, when the young mother gets—that pressure gets so high—it’s a name for it, and I can’t recall it right now—that you have to seek outside help. My mother had to go to the doctors in the close proximity in order to kind of monitor her health. But my grandmother did deliver the baby, but I think they were sent away when the mother had that prenatal sickness. You were sent to doctors and nurses in the community, but you came back. You still came back, and you didn’t 00:37:00have that exorbitant fee. I call it exorbitant for our parents. It would’ve been $20. It would’ve been an exorbitant fee for them to pay.

So they were delivered, all of my siblings, and my baby brother was delivered by my grandmother. So why some were not delivered and some were, that’s something that—these are questions that I will ask the participants. I had some cousins who participated in this—you know, who gave me some information. And, as I told you, one of these cousins was raised by my grandmother.

JNV: Okay. Let me ask you, since you mentioned the family: what were the family relations like with 00:38:00your grandmother?

AF: Oh, a beautiful—just a very pleasant and well-respected—Grandmother was well respected by—I don’t know anyone who had a bounty out on her life. [Laughs.] She was just loved by members of the community, and that includes my family, her grandchildren, who visited her often. And she would always have food, especially the little bucket that I mentioned to you in the first interview, filled with little quarter-sized biscuits and whatever else they may have had that day. But those biscuits were that trademark of hers with the children. And she would take 00:39:00the children during her—and I don’t know—they would walk to a place in Learned and attend the meetings. That’s what my siblings and cousins thought that that’s why the children would just be all surrounding her all in the row, playing, and getting to those meetings, because they had a segment for the midwives, a training, and someone else was there to take the children to have—you know, playin’ games and other activities for those children that she had—that the midwives had birthed.

I thought that that was such a unique combination, how the children were not left out, 00:40:00even during the training of the midwives, because they were those products, and, you know, they were the sure results of that practice, you know? And so those children were there just playing, and havin’ May Day at Welcome, wrappin’ the maypole, and excited, and with all of the refreshments comin’ out. And the nurses could see all of those granny babies out there, healthy, walking four or five miles in order to get to the place where we are providing more training and guidelines for the people who will continue to birth you and 00:41:00help your mommies to help you stay healthy, and, you know, join with other children that these people had brought into—I called it brought into the world, sometimes, because they did, you know, guide them into the birthing process, down that canal, and when they popped out, the world, hello. [Laughter.] JNV: Oh, that’s a wonderful story. Can you tell me—can you recall, rather—some other contributions that your grandmother made within the community?

AF: She was called upon as, you know, the neighborhood doctor. Uh-huh [affirmative]. My cousin tells me a story about her little brother, who was ill. His 00:42:00name was Curt [sp?]—we called him Curt—and her name is Ree [sp?]. And Curt was the baby of the family, and he had gotten one of the childhood illnesses—the mumps, I believe. And he had had a bad case of the mumps. He got to feelin’ better—I assume the fever had broken—and went outside, you know, unsuspecting, of course, and just didn’t—you know he disobeyed somebody, going outside and muddy. And with this, I don’t know whether he had shoes on or not, but playin’ in the mud. Now, that was probably—well, you know it had to be cold weather. And the child, when he came in that afternoon, became so ill. Fever was just soaring. And the father said—my uncle said, “Run and get Mama. Run and get Mama. Tell 00:43:00her what’s wrong. Tell her what’s wrong.” Ooh, she came. Of course, she was a small lady, a very petite little lady, and she rushed in there with the children who had come to get her. You know, they didn’t allow anybody to go alone. You almost had somebody with you. So the two girls, Ree and Zed [sp?], they rushed in with Grandma Sally. When she looked at that child, felt him, she rushed out to the garden. There was a big stalk of a collard, and she pulled off the biggest leaf and rushed back in that house, and wrapped that child as tight as she could in that collard leaf. And that fever broke.

JNV: That is neat [ph].

AF: And this young man was well. I mean, that—yes, it was interesting. And I said, “Do you mean, Ree, 00:44:00a collard leaf?” “Yes, a collard leaf.” We know that that was one of her doctor’s visits that was a good report.

So we know that there were other different kinds of herbs, how they would go out and get the salad greens, and the peppermint, things that grew readily, the things that we call—what do you call it? And I don’t even eat them; that’s why I cannot think of the name. The garlic. Okay. You know, there’s some plant that resembles garlic, and they smell like garlic, and it may be garlic, but it may be another variety. How they would use it in a hog hoof tea. How they would use hog hoofs and cow hoofs to make a tea for the young ones, and 00:45:00for the old ones, too. And they would—we would do that, and that’s where—I’m sure this was passed down from my grandmother to my mother, because we would drink that. We would also eat those things called sheep shadows [ph], which are supposed to have a kind of, I guess, gastro, indigestion kind of help, because you could chew those things, and they were kind of sour and make you burp. [Laughs.] So there were so many of the household remedies that my grandmother did, and people were cured by just her recommendation, by her prescription, 00:46:00unwritten. [Laughs.] JNV: That is really wonderful, remarkable.

AF: Yes. And the rosin. You know, the rosin from the tree? I think that was—you know, gum tree. The pine tree has that sticky kind of gummy stuff?

JNV: Yeah.

AF: That kind of clears your teeth, and gets your breath smellin’ sweet, all of that. So it’s a wonder how many things that they had to remedy certain conditions, and those were some of them.

JNV: Okay. So approximately how many babies did your grandmother catch?

AF: This morning, before I went out to the car, I said, oh, I know that this will be a question that Dr. Neal will ask, so I counted. Ooh, I began to count. And my mind didn’t say, okay, Alma, let’s stop and see how 00:47:00many people would be on each page, and then you can multiply. But no. I counted, one—just very carefully. There were more than 400 people on that page, and I didn’t write it down, because I didn’t have time. But as I said, I will say more than 500 babies she caught within those 20 years that she had written down. But I would go on to say that Grandmother Sally probably caught up to a thousand babies. I’m just gonna say that big of a ballpark figure, because I am doing—put the question mark behind a thousand. I know she caught 500-plus. But what she did prior to 1930, that’s a mystery to me right now. That 00:48:00is not defined just yet.

JNV: Okay. Very good. She was really working.

AF: Oh, she worked. And she was moving. And she was one—we know midwives did not stay at home much. And her husband had passed away. She had buried her husband, so she didn’t have to worry about not giving him the wife attention, “wifery” attention. But her sons would be concerned about her when she would have to get up in the morning, or 12 o’clock midnight. Somebody would come and knock on the door. Is Aunt Sally in? Most people called her Aunt Sally, most of the Black people. And Aunt Sally would get up, put on her little old boots and her socks, and put on her apron. And she would have a 00:49:00smock that would open up in the front with pockets in it. She needed all of that to put her—put the equipment that she was really using at that time. She had a bucket—her basket—not her basket. It was not a basket. Her bag. Her black bag.

JNV: Do you have that black bag? We’d love to get that.

AF: I don’t have it. Ooh, I would love that black bag. In fact, I hope one day that we could—I could let you speak with the neighbor. Her name’s Nay Ruth, the one that Grandmother raised, and she could give you—it would be so exciting to do.

JNV: Yes, I want to talk with her.

AF: I want you to talk with her. She lives in Pearl now. She is with one of the—she is, you know, spending some time with one of the children. But she would be very happy if we could— JNV: What’s her name, now?

AF: Her name is Nay Ruth. Nay.

JNV: N-A-Y?

AF: Uh-huh [affirmative], N-A-Y. Then R-U-T-H. 00:50:00And you should hear my grandmother callin’ her name. Nay Ruth! [Laughter.] But her name is Nay Ruth Manyfield.

JNV: Well, I want to talk to Nay Ruth.

AF: Okay. All right.

JNV: Okay. Let’s see now. The birth certificates. Do you have copies of any of the birth certificates?

AF: Yeah, I do have a couple of copies of those birth certificates.

JNV: Okay. Would you be amenable to allowing us to have a copy?

AF: Yes. I would be amenable to—yes, I would.

JNV: And of course, you have your donor form.

EDNA HARRIS: Ten fifty-two, 10:52.

AF: [To JNV] I’m sorry. [To EH] Thank you.

JNV: Our time is what, now?

AF: Ten fifty-two.

EH: Ten fifty-two.

JNV: Okay. Let’s see. So you have copies. You have access to the copies of the birth certificates.

AF: Of some, now, not all of them.

JNV: Yes, some of the birth certificates. Did your 00:51:00grandmother have assistants during the birthing process? Did anybody assist her, or did she do everything by herself?

AF: I understand she did everything by herself. She had people in the house, you know, the older children or the husband, who had the water boiled, and the fire all fired up, and boiling the water, and as much—they were there—she had someone poised for what she needed. And if she needed someone to rush up and get extra—you know, maybe call in somebody else, she had that. But just somebody passing her the stirrups or whatever, I don’t think she had that person, not 00:52:00as a—you know, not all the time. So she didn’t have that. Her little—Nay Ruth did go with her from time to time, but I think she just probably sat around, and if there were other children at the house, kind of played. You know, they put them off in a—away. They had to go away from the birthing room.

JNV: Okay. So she handled the process herself.

AF: Oh, yes.

JNV: It was just with people giving her things, and boiling the water, that type of thing.

AF: Oh, yes. Well, the birthing process, you know, the mother herself knew a lot about it, just like the mothers now. You gotta push, and you got to sit up, and you— She had given them the prenatal exercise, you know, what they should do, because many times, and as necessary, our parents—my 00:53:00mother worked in the fields until it was time almost for that baby to be delivered. Even she had had contractions, but because of prior knowledge, they knew that the baby probably wouldn’t come so easily at the first contraction. Some people—and they would kind of base it on, you know, what happened with your first, with the second, with the third. So if this baby came down slidin’ so fast, then that was something that she felt was good, because of the exercise, and you had [ph]— JNV: Yes, and movement, right, right.

AF: —givin’ them movement [ph], yes. Uh-huh [affirmative].

JNV: I remember I almost had my baby girl on Jackson State’s campus. [Laughs.] AF: Oh, my goodness. Oh, did you?

JNV: Yes. I can tell you a story about that.

AF: Okay.

JNV: Can you tell me about whether 00:54:00or not there was a Black doctor in the community during the time of your grandmother? Or was she considered the— AF: Well, she, and there were others who they referred to, because there was a man who they said could talk the fire out of you, you know, if a child was burned. And kids were burned quite a bit, because they fell over in the open fire many times, or they went and they touched the stoves, the big black stoves that were heating components and parts for keeping the house warm. But there was a man who could talk the fire out of people, and the people who did various things. But with my grandmother, the things—like a pea got in my brother’s ear. You 00:55:00know, you—my mother, of course, knew that you could warm water, and, you know, that had to be handed down. Warm water, and that pea will rise up to the top. And just get a little bobby pin, that was the best we had—didn’t have any prongs—pull it out. There were no Black doctors, I can safely say, in the general area where she was practicing. There were a few doctors, you know, the white doctors that was the in area. But as far as hospitalization, obstetrician and gynecological doctors, there were none in that area.

JNV: Okay. Did your grandmother talk specifically about the medical doctors? You’ve talked 00:56:00about—gave some history of that, but did she talk specifically about the medical doctors and nurses who discriminated against her?

AF: Not necessarily their discrimination, but from what we saw in their lives, and just their walk, we know that there were some discrimination where you placed all of the midwives in a general category: ignorant; you know, those Black, Indigenous, ignorant housewives were— JNV: So they were stigmatized.

AF: Yeah, very much stigmatized. Uh-huh [affirmative]. And those were—yes, that was where we know—but that didn’t faze 00:57:00them very much, because they knew who was in charge.

JNV: So despite those areas, they continued to do what they needed to do for the [crosstalk].

AF: They continued to do—yes.

JNV: Okay. What stands out most in your mind about your grandmother as a midwife?

AF: She was caring. She just didn’t go and deliver a baby, just didn’t go and catch a baby; she had a relationship with the families. And she would see the people, would know that the people were expecting prior to—many of ’em, of course. You know she knew her children were. And she would kind of guide them on their journey to birthing, and stay 00:58:00there. If there were anything, or the mother needed more preparation in taking care of the baby, sorta like a pediatrician, she would stay there and help the mother where the mother was able to— Sometimes the mother would be terribly sick, and she would guide the mothers carefully to where she was healthy again to take care of the child. Yes, that was that relationship. That was a good—I think she had a wonderful relationship with the people.

JNV: Have you been able to research what you told me before about the granny midwives within the family? You had given a few names, and I think you were going to try to provide some contacts for me?

AF: Okay. We do have—there 00:59:00was a midwife around the time that Grandmother practiced. Her name was Drusilla Hicks.

JNV: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Spell her first name.

AF: D-R-U-S-I-L-L-A, I believe, is Drusilla or -zilla, but I believe she preferred -silla. And there is a cousin that I know, and the only one that I’m thinkin’ about is, her name is Geraldine—Geraldine— JNV: Your cousin?

AF: Geraldine—no, this lady was not my cousin. But you’re saying during the time that my grandmother practiced, and the one I’m thinkin’ about, her name is Geraldine January [sp?]. She used to work at— JNV: January? Okay.

AF: Yeah. She works at—she used to work at Freddie’s, at Westhaven [Funeral Home], but she has retired now. And I’ll try to get her address.

JNV: Okay, thank 01:00:00 you.

AF: Now, I was saying that my grandmother—in our families, we did have—in fact, there were three granny midwives that were—well, my grandmother made the third one. That was her grandmother and her unc— Well, I’ll bring them to you. That’s something we’ll finish later. I will bring that to you.

JNV: Okay. Have you shared your story with any of the children within your family?

AF: Not yet. Not yet.

JNV: Okay. Do you think that at some point soon you might be interested in doing that?

AF: Well, I will certainly think about it. [Laughs.] Sounds good.

JNV: Okay. And your artifacts. I know that you do have this ledger— AF: Yes.

JNV: —and you mentioned that you have a scarf that your grandmother had, 01:01:00plus you are going to look back at certificates in terms of the birthing process. Might you be willing to give us that ledger? [Laughs.] AF: [Laughs.] Now— JNV: For the good of the community and the different tourists— AF: Yes.

JNV: —who will be coming down there on Cohea Street to that Scott Ford complex— AF: Oh, Lord [ph], that’s gonna be beautiful.

JNV: —that museum that’s forthcoming?

AF: You know, Dr. Neal—and I talked with you a little bit about that, about how my heart is. Just, it’s swelling, and yet it is bursting open with sadness. I know that people would be so delighted just to come. Just think about those people whose names are in there, and just to see their names, and what date they—it was written in there, and how their names were spelled, and how 01:02:00people will come and want that, because I would come in and research again, too, if I had that. We are going to think about that very, very carefully, because I do want the world to know that my grandmother caught these babies, and the only way that it will be available for all to see, that accessibility and that availability, would for it to get into a—you know, an objective—I guess you’d say a common source, resource center, and to make that available. I want to do it, and yet I hesitate right now to say yes. But when I see you next time, I hope 01:03:00to say yes. I hope to say yes.

JNV: Okay. Thank you. And it would just be wonderful if you could hold up that ledger and the tourists can see your face as you are holding it up and maybe saying something about Sally Montgomery, and this is her actual record, you see. This is going to get people excited, and those who haven’t thought about midwives would perhaps go back through their families and try to find out their roots with the granny midwife.

AF: Amen, that’s right.

JNV: Well, this ends my session with you. You have done so well, Mrs. Fisher. And I’m just excited about what is yet to come from you. [AF laughs.] You come with lots of knowledge, and you load us down with the interesting things about 01:04:00that knowledge. So I’m very appreciative to you for having taken the time to come before Scott Ford House Incorporated and the W. K. Kellogg Foundation, as well as the community, and the different ones who are yet to come to see this particular video recording.

AF: Oh, wow.

JNV: Thank you so much.

AF: And thank you, Dr. Neal. It was a great pleasure of mine.

JNV: My pleasure. [END OF INTERVIEW]