Ted Henry

TED HENRY: Well, I was living on Ash Street when I was born. That was my first house.

JANICE K. NEAL-VINCENT: Okay. I know you’re on a schedule, but if you have time, maybe you could run by there.

TH: Yeah, I have to run by there.

JNV: You’ll see these two houses that I’m talking about.

TH: Yeah, and I’m sure [ph]— JNV: You can’t miss them. They are side by side, 136, 138. And Virginia Scott Ford was the midwife who dwelled there. She was the midwife. And we are doing these things in her honor, you see.

TH: You know, I was saying that there was one lady that I knew, my grandmother knew and was friends with. Maybe that was her. I don’t know.

JNV: Yeah, it coulda been.

TH: Yeah.

JNV: And she delivered babies by herself. She didn’t have—according to her granddaughter. I don’t know if you knew her granddaughter, Mrs. [Ruth] Weir, died—[pronounced] “where.” I’m gonna say “weer.” 00:01:00But she died a few months ago.

TH: Yeah, that’s just it. A lotta people that we—I grew up with and are familiar with the whole situation, you know, they’re dead and gone. But now thinking about this, with so many years, a lotta stuff is just passed over, just went on by the wayside. You brought back a lotta memories with those questions you were asking, so I appreciate that.

JNV: Well, very good, very good. Do you remember a lady named Miss Lula Ford? She was an insurance lady in that Midtown area.

TH: I think I do remember that name.

JNV: Well, that was Virginia Scott Ford’s granddaughter [read: daughter]. And I didn’t know—like you were talking about things that did not click to you when you were a child—that there was any connection, because I didn’t know anything about Virginia Scott Ford way back there when I was five or six. You see?

TH: Exactly. You know, but—mm-hmm [affirmative].

JNV: But Mrs.—Miss Lula Ford—she never married, but she had one child, according to 00:02:00my research—was the insurance lady of my grandmother over on Fairbanks Street. And I can see Miss Ford coming in the house now as the insurance woman, and she and my grandmother had great conversations. Miss Ford was very professional, and you could tell that she was somebody in the community, you see.

TH: Was she with Universal Life?

JNV: I don’t know what the name of the company was— TH: It had to have been, yeah, probably Universal.

JNV: —but I remember she was an insurance lady.

TH: Right. I remember those insurance—yeah.

JNV: Yes, very intelligent lady. So it’s a small world.

EDNA HARRIS: You mind if I take your picture real quick?

TH: Sure. [Laughs.] JNV: Oh, yes. I forgot about the picture. [Laughs.] Thank you so much for remembering.

EH: Here we go [ph], count of three. One, two, three. [Takes picture.] I’m gonna do it one more time.

TH: Sure.

EH: One, two, and— [Takes picture.] Thank you, sir. 00:03:00TH: You’re very welcome.

JNV: Thank you. Now, I wanted to take one for Dr. Bailey [sp?] so she’d know [laughs] that you came.

TH: Oh, yeah, yeah. Dorothy Bailey knows my grandmother, too.

JNV: Is that right?

TH: Yeah, she knew Essie [sp?]. [Laughs.] JNV: Well, she’s really very much interested in this midwifery project. She and Don Lockhard [sp?] have talked extensively during the— [Recording stops, restarts.] JNV: Yes, right, right. Well, this is exciting.

TH: Yeah. And Rosa Scott, she taught all grades. You know, one big room. She would separate classes, and the students’ ability to learn in different areas. And that’s what she did. She would even cook, you know, make gingerbread and stuff like that in the mornings so the kids had something to eat. And she would teach around the schedules of the farmers. Certain times of the year, they had to be in the fields, you know, so— Yep. 00:04:00JNV: That’s wonderful.

TH: Yes.

JNV: So I could see from there she was not just within the family— TH: No.

JNV: —in what she did.

TH: Exactly.

JNV: She had a wide range of skills.

TH: And once she retired, she started a kindergarten. You know, sure did.

JNV: That’s really nice. She was very active.

TH: She was.

JNV: She retired, started a kindergarten. It’s just wonderful, wonderful.

EH: Ready whenever you are, Dr. Vincent.

JNV: You’re ready?

EH: Yes, ma’am.

JNV: Okay. 00:05:00Hello. I’m Janice K. Neal-Vincent, oral historian of Scott Ford House Incorporated and the W. K. Kellogg [Foundation] team. Today’s date is May 14, 2021. I’m accommodated in this interview by Miss Edna Harris, who is the videographer. I have with me the person I am about to interview, and I would like for him to please state his name.

TH: Yes, my name is Ted Henry, and I’m here in reference to my grandmother, Essie Parker [sp?]. And hopefully some of the things that I talk about will give you an idea of what she meant to me and to the 00:06:00community that she served.

JNV: Very good. Mr. Henry, in light of that, I do have a series of questions pertaining to your knowledge of your grandmother, who was a granny midwife here in Mississippi. May I have your permission to interview you?

TH: Of course. [Laughs.] JNV: Thank you.

TH: You’re very welcome.

JNV: So we shall begin. What was the time period when you knew of your granny midwife, your grandmother, who worked with you and/or your relatives? Specifically, with whom did she work? If not with the relatives, the community, as a midwife, a granny midwife? 00:07:00TH: Well, I was born in 1944, and from the time I was like four, five years old, Grandmother took me everywhere she went. As a matter of fact, she called me Baby Boy. [Laughter.] And she taught at Rosa Scott High School during the winter, and during the summer she would sit with local people, for the elderly, and she would take care of them. You know, back in the day, I thought maybe she was just a maid, but it was not only that; you know, she sat with the sick and the elderly. And during that particular point in time, there were a lot of things that I noticed, which back in that day I didn’t reference until later on when I understood that what she was doing had something to do with midwifery. 00:08:00So what I’m going to say today, basically, is looking at her from a young boy’s mindset.

JNV: Okay. That’s wonderful, because that’s exactly what we would like to hear as you recall being around your granny midwife. In what community and/or county did you live during that time?

TH: I lived in Hinds County, and initially, it was the Midtown section on Ash, Bell Street, in that area. Later on, we moved to Virden Addition, which was off Bailey Avenue, in that area. So this is where we grew up. And my grandmother was originally from Madison, Mississippi, so this was a part of the area that she really 00:09:00dealt with.

JNV: Okay. So you are really talking about her skills transitioning between Hinds County— TH: Yes, and Madison.

JNV: —and Madison County.

TH: Exactly.

JNV: Can you tell me, as you recall, if there were racial relations?

TH: Well, somewhat. But back during those times, there was some friction between midwives and doctors, in the sense that most of the conversations they had were between women and not too much of a man involved in it. 00:10:00So a lot of conversations that they had were in rhymes and riddles. You know, they had the ability to talk above and beyond everybody else, but still talk among themselves. As a small child, I was privy to this, and I really didn’t understand exactly what was being said until later on, when I would pick up on the little slangs that they used.

JNV: So these riddles. Why do you think they were talking in what you refer to as riddles?

TH: Well, in the normal sense, you know, as a small child, if you’re sitting around a bunch of old ladies talking, they didn’t wanna say certain things up front, but they would say it in a way that they thought they were fooling me, but I still got a gist of what they were saying. You know, because they would talk among themselves, and they would get among 00:11:00other women, and I would be around, and I would understand, because they—two things, and they meant the same thing. You know, when a lady was pregnant, or when a lady was sick, or when, you know, there were men and women that were at odds among themselves, they had certain ways of explainin’ this that nobody else knew but them.

JNV: Okay. Did they ever catch on that you understood? [Laughs.] TH: Later on in life they did. [Laughs.] JNV: Okay. You said your grandmother’s name was?

TH: Essie Cornelius [sp?] Parker.

JNV: Cornelius?

TH: Yes.

JNV: Parker.

TH: Yes.

JNV: Okay. 00:12:00Of course, she was a member of your family. She was your grandmother.

TH: Yes, my grandmother.

JNV: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. How old was she?

TH: Grandmother died in 1986, and she was 86 years old. She was born in 1900.

JNV: She was born in 1900.

TH: Yes. So she was 86 when she died. But she was a very statuesque woman, and you could tell when she walked. She held her back straight, and she would always fold her arms like this to where, you know, her head would have to be held up, and she’d make us do the same thing. Straighten up. Don’t slouch. You have to walk with your back straight, sit with your back straight, you know. And we had to be able to talk plainly, yes. She made us call her Grandmother, where everybody else is calling her Maw-maw and stuff like that. No, no. “My name is Grandmother.” 00:13:00[Laughs.] And she punctuated that, yes.

JNV: [Laughs.] Well, she was teaching a lot of things— TH: Yes, she was.

JNV: —just within that.

TH: Right.

JNV: Did she catch babies beyond family members?

TH: I’m pretty sure she did, because there were times when it could be three o’clock in the morning, and somebody would knock on the door, or her phone would ring. And back then, you know, you had two or three people in the neighborhood that had phones, and if they couldn’t get you, they would call somebody else. The other person would come to get you and tell you the message. And she would get up in the middle of the night, go to check on people. I wasn’t sure what she was doing, but anytime anybody got sick in the neighborhood, they would come to my grandmother, you know, whether it was serious or not. If she couldn’t help them, she would make sure they got to the hospital. 00:14:00JNV: Okay. What was that transportation like?

TH: Well, everybody in the neighborhood had some form of bein’ able to get around. If you didn’t have a car, you knew somebody that did, and they didn’t mind gettin’ up, helpin’ you. But she pretty much kept a car that she drove. She didn’t drive, but her husband drove.

JNV: So that meant that the spouse would have to get up with her— TH: Sure.

JNV: —to get her to where she needed—no matter what the time might have been.

TH: No matter what. And she would catch me by the arm and dress me. “Let’s go.” [Laughs.] JNV: Okay, okay. So you had to be ready, as well.

TH: I sure did.

JNV: Did she catch babies beyond the Black race?

TH: Not to my knowledge, you know. 00:15:00I do know that she had a specific relationship with some of the whites that were—she would work for during the summer. Now, as far as what relationship that was, I can’t say.

JNV: Okay. [Pause.] Why did your grandmother catch babies outside of the medical clinics and hospitals?

TH: Well, back in the day, you know, there was kinda like a— Individuals 00:16:00didn’t have money, or they didn’t feel comfortable with it, because they had grown up in that environment. So there were some people that they would call either way, just for support, information, or something like that. This is what Grandmother was. If it was something she couldn’t handle, there was a hospital on Jackson State’s campus, and several times, she’s brought patients here.

JNV: She brought patients here?

TH: Yes.

JNV: Well, in her bringing the babies here to the Jackson State campus, why did she not go to the medical clinics, other 00:17:00medical clinics, and the state hospital?

TH: Well, those are questions that I really can’t answer, but back then, you had to have a doctorate to get into those particular hospitals and clinics, you know, and I don’t think she felt comfortable with doin’ that. [Pause.] You have to understand, this was a different era, and that the relationship between Blacks and whites weren’t all that good, and a lot of Blacks didn’t trust the whites back then. 00:18:00JNV: Was your grandmother, Miss Essie, refused opportunities to catch babies in medical clinics and/or hospitals? Was that the nature of the times, when you talk about the Black/white relations?

TH: Yes. I’m not sure whether she was refused, but evidently there must have been friction, because she never took them. So there had to be something there. It wasn’t that she was afraid or didn’t have the education to do that, 00:19:00but the fact that she did not meant that there was something there.

JNV: Okay. That prevented her.

TH: Yes, right.

JNV: Okay.

TH: You know, I wish that I had been able to have more information about what she was doin’ back in the time that she was doin’ it, but I’m just on the outside lookin’ in.

JNV: Right, as a child.

TH: As a child, and then adolescent life. But now that I look back, there’re certain things that prompts me to say what I do.

JNV: Yes, yes. Mm-hmm [affirmative], mm-hmm [affirmative]. And that’s wonderful, because you’re telling the story as a child.

TH: Exactly.

JNV: And so that’s what a child would do: talk about what he or she remembered.

TH: Exactly.

JNV: Okay? So you’re doing fine. Now, let me ask you: do you think that racism may have interfered—did racism 00:20:00interfere with your grandmother’s catching babies? I remember you said that she only caught Black babies.

TH: Yes.

JNV: I got that. But did racism interfere with her catching babies? In other words, why did she not catch white babies?

TH: Racism. [Laughs.] Pure and simple. Yeah, it’s not the fact that she wasn’t able to, but back then, it wasn’t something that everybody catered to. Plus, one thing that I—I want to say this, is that back in the day, abortions were done, and everybody blamed the abortions on midwifery, too. 00:21:00JNV: Okay, tell me about that.

TH: Yeah. You know, you had a young child, and she got pregnant. Who are they gonna take her to for an abortion? Somebody that all the women knew in the neighborhood. You know, a common thing, but nobody would really want to talk about it. You know, it was a clandestine thing, because it was somethin’ that people just don’t talk about. But it would come up in certain conversations. But you knew what was going on, just by the talk. Just, you know, what I was saying earlier about the type of slang that they used. They would say, “Well, she was big last week, but look at her now. She’s lost a whole lotta weight, huh?” Stuff like that.

JNV: Okay. So you said that the community was blaming the midwives.

TH: Yes.

JNV: Why were they blaming the midwife?

TH: Well, who else 00:22:00would be able to perform abortions?

JNV: Oh, okay. Okay. So they assumed that when an abortion may have been performed— TH: Yes, it had to be by— JNV: —the midwife did it.

TH: Right.

JNV: Okay. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Did you ever hear your grandmother in conversation with anybody about these abortions?

TH: Well, not in that sense, but I remember one time somebody tried to do a home abortion, and my grandmother was talking with her sister, and she was saying that she never should have done that. There were plenty of people that could have helped her, but she was afraid to ask anybody. “She could have just come to me. I would’ve given her help.” I remember that conversation distinctly. It was the first time that I was 00:23:00exposed to that particular kind of thing with abortions and stuff. I think I was maybe like 10, 11 years old, and I’m just, to me, to the age of reckoning and understanding stuff like that, you know.

JNV: So this woman had an abortion.

TH: Yes.

JNV: Okay.

TH: She did it herself, but she got real sick.

JNV: Oh, she did it herself?

TH: Yes, or somebody helped her do it that wasn’t, you know—that shouldn’t have done it, I’ll put it that way.

JNV: So when your grandmother said that she shouldn’t have done it, that she [Ted Henry’s grandmother] could have helped her [the pregnant patient], what 00:24:00do you think she meant?

TH: Well, that’s just it: this is one of the first times that I thought maybe that the fact that she would help bring babies in the world, that she would also help take them out. This was my understanding from the conversation.

JNV: Okay, okay. So your grandmother had—did you say your grand—what did you say your grandmother was? I think you said she taught at Rosa Scott.

TH: She taught at Rosa Scott School in Madison. 00:25:00And during the summer months, when she wasn’t teaching, she would sit for the elderly and the sick.

JNV: So she had three jobs.

TH: Yes, she did.

JNV: Okay.

TH: Initially, I thought she was just a maid. Back in the day, that was a common thing for women to just be maids. But she always had on her white uniform when she went to work. And her hours weren’t exactly what you would consider maid’s hours, ’cause she would sit for a whole week or a weekend, or something like that, while she was off.

JNV: Okay. And so during those times that she was away from home, where were you?

TH: With Mother. [Laughs.] 00:26:00JNV: Oh, you were with her.

TH: Yes.

JNV: Okay, okay.

TH: By me being my grandmother’s first grandson, she took up a lot of time and energy with me. So I was just like her old—a regular companion.

JNV: So nobody else was there, no more children at that time.

TH: No. No, nobody. Exactly.

JNV: Okay, okay. Did she talk about medical doctors or nurses who may have discriminated against her?

TH: Yeah, I’m pretty sure she did. I’ve heard her several times talking about some of the doctors, but I couldn’t remember their names, or who they were, or where they worked, you know, from.

JNV: Who was she in conversation with about these doctors and nurses?

TH: Well, there was a Dr. Christian [sp?].

JNV: A Dr. Christian?

TH: He had an office on Farish Street, the Black doctor. 00:27:00And there was a nurse. I’ve forgotten her name right now, but they would have conversations all the time about medical stuff, and stuff like that.

JNV: Do you know anything about Dr. Christian?

TH: No, I don’t. I remember him having an office on Farish Street, and this is the doctor that my grandmother would go to for herself. And when she was there, she and the nurse were real good friends, and they would talk about a lotta stuff, which I wasn’t really interested in. When she had questions or anything, she would always ask Dr. Christian.

JNV: Okay. So you heard some of these conversations.

TH: Yes.

JNV: Okay. 00:28:00[Pause.] Did medical doctors prevent mothers from having children at hospitals?

TH: Well, there were some hospitals that—excuse me—that Blacks couldn’t go to. So quite naturally, that would have prevented them, in a sense. And if there were hospitals that you could go to, the service was horrible. I heard her talking about death a lot, about the kind of service that they got going to those particular hospitals.

JNV: Okay. Did she give 00:29:00any examples of those kinds of services?

TH: Not that I can remember.

JNV: Okay. But you recall her saying— TH: Yes.

JNV: —services were horrible?

TH: They were horrible.

JNV: Did she say, in talking about these horrible services, anything about the races, the Blacks and the whites?

TH: Well, when you went to the doctor, you had a separate waiting room. Sometimes you waited out in the hall. This just wasn’t comfortable for a lotta people. And they 00:30:00would also see all of the white patients before they saw the Black patients.

JNV: They would do what, now?

TH: They would see all the white patients before they would even consider seeing the Black patients.

JNV: Who were the people in the halls?

TH: All Black people.

JNV: Okay, okay. Were there whites out there with them?

TH: No. Every time I’ve gone to the hospital, they were always in the hall if they were busy, or the separate Colored waiting room was full. It was like one little area that they would have for the Colored people. And the white waiting room was pretty big. They had magazines. You could sit and read and be comfortable.

JNV: Were there magazines in the Black— TH: No.

JNV: —waiting room, the Colored?

TH: Nah, no, no. 00:31:00JNV: So in light of these conditions that you are talking about, how were the Blacks, as opposed to the whites, being called up to be seen by the doctor?

TH: Well, you would have someone go in and say, Look, we have this problem. They would ask you if you had the money, or insurance, or whatever, and they would say, “Go sit there,” or, “Go sit there.” I remember one time we had to sit in the car until somebody came out to get us.

JNV: Why was that?

TH: Because they had no waiting room there. This is in 00:32:00Canton, Mississippi. I remember that distinctly. [Pause.] One of her relatives was sick, and the hospital in Canton was a lot closer than Jackson, so we took her up there. And we had to sit in the car until the doctor was ready to see her.

JNV: Okay. You mentioned that your grandmother performed midwifery in Madison County as well as Hinds.

TH: Yes, right.

JNV: So do you recall what the conditions were like with her in Madison? Did you ever go with her there?

TH: Well, yeah. Basically, in Madison, it was like a big country area. So 00:33:00I remember Grandmother would get her little satchel, and she would put her different things in it, and she would visit the houses that they were. They were normally back off into—in the fields, somewhere like that. And she’d go and do her thing. I would sit out in the living room, or play, or something like that, you know, until she was ready to go. And we would leave when everything was done.

JNV: Okay. How were you treated in the Madison area, the big country you talked about?

TH: Okay, she was treated better out that way, because most of the people out there were relatives or friends she grew up with, the people that she associated with in her younger days.

JNV: Did she grow up in Madison?

TH: Yes, this was her home, in Madison. 00:34:00JNV: Okay. [Pause.] What were the racial relations like with her in Madison?

TH: Well, she was treated a lot better out there, because her education and the way she carried herself basically put here on a different level than the others, the other Blacks that were around her. So she was treated very well.

JNV: Okay. When you say she was treated very well, what do you mean? Was she treated very well by the Blacks?

TH: Blacks and whites, yes. They respected her. 00:35:00JNV: Did she deliver any white babies in Madison County?

TH: I really don’t know. I couldn’t tell you. I really wish I could.

JNV: Okay. But you do know—you recall that she was well respected by both races.

TH: Yes, she was.

JNV: Okay. Did your grandmother have a certificate?

TH: I know she had a teaching certificate and a nursing certificate, but as far as a midwifery certificate, I don’t know. I wasn’t aware that they gave certificates for midwifery back then.

JNV: Okay. 00:36:00Do you have any of her possessions, any of her papers?

TH: No, I don’t.

JNV: Does anyone in your family, to your knowledge?

TH: I’m pretty sure they do, and what I’ll do, I will try my best to find out who has that stuff, and maybe I can sort through it and get some of it to you.

JNV: Okay, that sounds very good. Anything in reference to her work as a granny midwife, like her license, her certificate, would really be very good.

TH: I remember seeing her certificates on the wall in her house, but what happened to them over the years, I really don’t know.

JNV: Okay. Do you know whether or not she was certified in Hinds and/or Madison?

TH: No.

JNV: Okay. 00:37:00Maybe once you speak with relatives— TH: Yes, I will.

JNV: —something may come up. Okay.

TH: Are those certifications on record somewhere?

JNV: Well, to my knowledge, different interviewees have pulled out records of things that were handed down from the granny midwives, that type of thing. I don’t know if there’s a particular location that houses the record, like the birth certificates that we get from the Department of Health or what have you. I have no knowledge of that at this time, but I do know that different individuals who have been interviewed have pulled out certain artifacts that were handed down or kept 00:38:00by that particular interviewee within the family.

TH: Okay. I’m gonna do my best to find out where those papers and stuff are.

JNV: Can you tell me, looking back at your grandmother, how she might have been compensated? I know you indicated that she was—did you say she was a nurse?

TH: Yes.

JNV: Okay. She was a nurse. She was a schoolteacher.

TH: Right.

JNV: In terms of her midwifery responsibilities, how might she have been compensated by the mothers or family members who had babies coming forth?

TH: I know a few times that if a certain person 00:39:00had access to a garden, they would can different vegetables and food, and bring it to my grandmother. Or they would kill a pig or a cow. They would bring her certain foods. Anything like that, they would do. Some ladies would even make her blankets and quilts. I remember those distinctly. And I’m pretty sure a few dollars changed hands, too, from certain people. But it was kinda like the barter system back then, anyway.

JNV: Okay. Explain that.

TH: That means if I have services that you need, I’ll do it for services from you. You know, that’s the way it was.

JNV: Okay. [Pause.] 00:40:00Do you know whether or not your grandmother was forced into retirement?

TH: No. Her health was, you know, the outlying factor in her retiring.

JNV: Pardon?

TH: Her health.

JNV: Okay. Her health. Okay, okay.

TH: Yes, yes. Her eyes started goin’ bad. She couldn’t see that good, and physically, she started goin’ downhill. And she just decided to retire.

JNV: Okay. So when her health started declining, did she give up all three of those roles, all those job-related skills at that time?

TH: Basically, she did, but she was kinda like in the manner of, 00:41:00if you need something, ask me, and we’ll discuss it, you know, we’ll talk about it. I’ll give you all the knowledge I have, even though I can’t do it physically, but I can help you.

JNV: So she shared her knowledge.

TH: Yes, she did.

JNV: Okay.

TH: Everybody would come by just to talk with her, you know, ask her questions, so she could share some of the things that she knew about different stuff.

JNV: Okay. So she passed her legacy.

TH: Yes, she did.

JNV: Okay. Do you know, within passing the legacy, whether or not she may have taught others her midwifery skills?

TH: I’m pretty sure she probably did. 00:42:00She had a few real good, close, younger friends that she would talk with all the time. They would travel together sometimes. But like I said, most of those have passed away, or are not in the area, or whatever, so— JNV: When you say younger friends, did they look at her as granny midwife?

TH: Of course, she did.

JNV: Okay. [Pause.] What were the family relations like with Miss Essie? I know you mentioned that you were the only child at the time accommodating her. You went around with her, with whatever she did. Can you tell me some things beyond all of that? In other words, 00:43:00beyond the midwifery skills, looking at the family, the family structure that you were part of, what was that like with her?

TH: Well, she was pretty much the matriarch of the family. Nothing was said or done unless Grandmother’s input was there. Everybody had a certain nickname for her.

JNV: Which was?

TH: Some called her Aunt Titty. [Laughs.] She had large breasts, and everybody—’cause she would always hold them up like this, they called her Aunt Titty. You know, that was basically from all the little nieces and nephews. A couple of ladies called her Thor. I don’t know where they got that name Thor from, but they did. That’s one of her nicknames.

JNV: T-H-O-R?

TH: Yes. [Laughs.] So 00:44:00maybe it references what they felt about her, you know, how they thought about who she was.

JNV: What did her husband call her?

TH: Baby. [Laughs.] JNV: Okay. I don’t know. For some reason, I thought baby. [Laughs.] TH: Yeah, you know. [Laughs.] JNV: What was his name?

TH: Sandy Parker.

JNV: Sammy?

TH: Sandy.

JNV: Sandy.

TH: Sandy, yes.

JNV: S-A-N-D-Y?

TH: D-Y, right.

JNV: Okay. Called her baby.

TH: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

JNV: What were some kinds of things that she did, like tasks that she performed within the family?

TH: Oh, man. Grandmother would always make sure that we would all get together as a family. We’d have cookouts. If somebody didn’t have food, she’d make sure they ate. Maybe 00:45:00your gas was off. She made sure that we got together and provided money for that particular person to have money for gas. [Phone rings.] Let me turn this off. And just so many other things. Everybody depended on Grandmother for just things that, you know, we would take for granted. And if somebody got sick, she was the first one on the scene.

JNV: Well, in terms of the sickness within the family, how did she work with that person?

TH: Grandmother— JNV: Did she use any—excuse me—any of those midwifery skills?

TH: I’m pretty sure she did. Grandmother had a yard full of flowers, herbs, 00:46:00and plants. And she would go out and, you know, she’d pick roots and barks. She would boil it up, make a syrup, a medicine for you. Or if you needed medicine from the drugstore, she would go get that, and she would tell you what to take. And some things you had to have a prescription for, she would make sure that prescriptions got written, and made sure that we took those things, you know. That was just a part of her. She loved to make sure that people were healthy, and she would do anything in her power, you know, to make sure that you got whatever it took to get you well.

There was an old man that went around the neighborhood. I called him Mr. Asphidity, because he smelled like that all the time. But he sold herbs, and 00:47:00sassafras roots to make teas, and all those things. And he—she—would come to my grandmother’s house all the time and bring certain things—you know, a poultice, those kinda things—but people didn’t have money to go to the doctors and stuff like we do now, so home remedies were the in thing.

JNV: What was his name?

TH: His name was Adam Gardner [sp?].

JNV: Adam?

TH: Adam Gardner.

JNV: And what did you say he was doing?

TH: You know, he would walk around the neighborhood with all kinds of roots and plants on his back. He would sell those things.

JNV: Did he sell anything to your mother? [Recording stops, restarts.] JNV: How many babies do you think your grandmother Essie caught 00:48:00in the family? And do you recall any of their names? Did she catch you?

TH: I’m not sure. I’m gonna—[laughs] you know what? Only person I can ask is my elder cousin, and I’m gonna do that. Everybody else is gone, but I will do that. I will call her to see.

JNV: Okay. [Pause.] And I think you said earlier, you will check your birth certificate— TH: Yes, I most certainly will.

JNV: —to see who delivered you.

TH: I do have a copy of it, yes.

JNV: Okay. [Pause.] Well, since you were the oldest child, do you think that your grandmother—did your grandmother 00:49:00deliver any of your siblings?

TH: Well, here’s the situation. I remember one of my sisters was born in our house. And my grandmother was there, so what can you surmise from that? That she was delivered by her.

JNV: And about how old were you at the time?

TH: I was probably about eight or nine, ’cause they made us go in the back and play, like they normally do, and a couple hours later we heard the little crying voice, you know.

JNV: Okay. So your sister appeared. [Laughs.] TH: Yeah. You know, sure did. [Laughs.] And there wasn’t a doctor there, so evidently she had to be involved in it.

JNV: Okay. 00:50:00And this was at home.

TH: Yes, 3347 Edwards Avenue. [Laughs.] JNV: Okay. Thirty-three forty-seven?

TH: Yes, Edwards Avenue. That’s in Virden Addition.

JNV: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Okay, thank you. And I think you said earlier that you don’t recall your grandmother—well, did she catch babies in the community?

TH: Mm-hmm [affirmative], I’m pretty sure she did, yes.

JNV: Do you recall any of the names? There may be a record of their birth certificates. Any of them?

TH: No, I wish I could, 00:51:00but I can’t.

JNV: Okay. Once you check within the family— TH: I will.

JNV: —there might be somebody, like the cousin you mentioned who may have some things, who might have some kind of record of your grandmother’s recordings.

TH: I surely will.

JNV: Because during that time, they—some of them, at least—recorded the births before they did the birth certificates. And so maybe that cousin might be able to point some— TH: Right, I’m gonna check with her and see. I always wondered about that: if you had your baby at home, how did you get the baby registered? You know, what did you do? I don’t know.

JNV: Mm-hmm [affirmative], okay. So that would be probably a beginning, to search there. If she had a record that she kept—she had to have a record at some point— TH: Of course. 00:52:00JNV: —when she was performing— TH: She did keep records and stuff like that. Like I said, she was a schoolmarm, so she did those things. She made us do them, too, so— JNV: Yes. Then after that, after recording when, for instance, your sister came, if she did that, then at some point the child would have to be registered.

TH: Exactly.

JNV: Mm-hmm [affirmative], okay. Did she have assistants? I know you mentioned that during the process of birthing you would be in another place— TH: Yes.

JNV: —and suddenly at some point the baby would appear.

TH: Right.

JNV: Well, did she have any assistants during the birthing process?

TH: Yes.

JNV: Okay. Can you tell me about that?

TH: Okay, well, my grandmother had several sisters, and from time to time one of those sisters would come with her, or somebody else in the neighborhood, you know, a friend of the lady that was having the kid, 00:53:00would be there to assist, too.

JNV: What did they do?

TH: As far as we know what they did, I don’t know. They were in the room. They were doin’ whatever they do to bring kids into the world.

JNV: Okay. So after they worked with your grandmother, what did they do?

TH: Once everything was done, they just went their separate ways.

JNV: Okay, then they left.

TH: Yes. I wish I was able back then to have witnessed what [laughs] was goin’ on, but, you know, that was a no-no back then. [Laughs.] JNV: Right, right. Eventually they left. You do know they left.

TH: Yes.

JNV: Okay. You talked earlier about a Black doctor on Farish Street. So do you have a story about him in the community during the time period of your grandmother?

TH: Sure. 00:54:00I remember—I think I was like four years old, and my tonsils swole. This was kinda like the first time I was able to recognize what was goin’ on around me, and what happened was he recommended that I go to the hospital to get my tonsils removed.

JNV: The Black guy?

TH: Yes.

JNV: What did you say his name was?

TH: Dr. C. B. Christian.

JNV: And what happened after that?

TH: Well, I think we went to the hospital, and they had me sittin’ in the hallway for a long time. My mama got mad. My grandmother came up and she got mad. And there was a big boogaloo, and before they knew it, they took me to a private room, and next thing I knew, they were giving me an anesthetic. And when I came out, I ate plenty 00:55:00of ice cream. [Laughs.] But it was a thing about—oh, my gosh, if I could remember distinctly exactly what happened. But I know Dr. Christian was the one that sent me to the hospital. And there was a conflict about what was wrong with me and what should have been done. But they got it worked out, though. Once my grandmother got there, you know, she got the two sides together, and I went on and had my tonsillectomy.

JNV: So you had what now?

TH: A tonsillectomy. [Laughs.] JNV: Okay, okay. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. [Pause.] Well, it looks like you’re remembering more and more.

TH: Yeah, you know, as I think back about 00:56:00certain things, it kinda triggers a thought pattern. Like I said, what questions you ask decide what answers I give [laughs] by me thinking back about certain things.

JNV: Very good. Did the midwife spend time with any children she caught?

TH: Oh, yes, I’m pretty sure she did. But I should say, she was a—she opened a kindergarten for children. She would teach them in school. I think this was her passion, children.

JNV: And you were with her, you said, all the time.

TH: Yes, right. And she was adamant about us saying yes and no. You 00:57:00couldn’t shake your head; you had to say yes or no, and that was it.

JNV: Okay. Did she insist on you saying “Yes, ma’am”?

TH: No. You say yes and no. No ma’am or sir. Yes. No. Period.

JNV: I was asking because here in the South that has been stressed many times back in the day, about “Yes, ma’am,” “No, sir,” “Yes, sir.” TH: Well, she stressed us not to say ma’am and sir. I got in trouble a few times by just saying yes and no. I was working for a judge. As a matter of fact, the same judge that she worked for from time to time. He asked me some questions. I said, Yes, no. 00:58:00[Laughs.] And my mother said, “Why did you say that?” I said, “Well, Grandmother told me to always say yes and no.” So after that, if they asked me somethin’ that had a positive expletive [ph], I would say, I think so. That might be right. I never did say yes, no, or anything like that. I got out of doin’ those things.

JNV: So that conditioning process in terms of system of things for a child and his or her place— TH: Exactly.

JNV: —was there, but there was a conflict between the system and your grandmother’s pattern.

TH: Right. Exactly right. [Pause.] I 00:59:00remember the March on Washington, and my grandmother was adamant about gettin’ me there, so we had a group from—with Medgar Evers—a group from Jackson. We got together. We had to have a certain amount of money, and my grandmother got the money together, and said, “Here you go. You go.” So I was there. She meant a lotta those things. She was adamant about those. [Pause.] JNV: So that, perhaps, may have been her way of teaching more about the racial relations?

TH: Exactly. There were certain ways that she thought we could get out of that systemic racism part by having an education, and that’s why she stressed that.

JNV: She stressed education.

TH: Yes.

JNV: 01:00:00Well, in terms of the person who you were—the authority who you were saying yes to, what race was he?

TH: He was white.

JNV: Oh, he was white.

TH: He was a judge.

JNV: Okay. He was a white judge.

TH: Yes.

JNV: Okay.

TH: But back then, it really didn’t dawn on me or register to me that they are, “Yes, sir,” and, “No, sir,” anyway. But that was just a regular person to me.

JNV: Okay. How did the children 01:01:00interact with your grandmother?

TH: Oh, they loved her. She was very strict, but she made sure that they were fed correctly. She made sure that they learned. If there was some difficulty in a certain subject, she would take them aside and try to shore up that—any deficiency that they had. And back then, having a conversation was kinda difficult for a lot of students, because they really hadn’t had any ability to conversate with different people on different levels, so she made sure they were able to communicate. That was the most important thing to her, being able to communicate.

JNV: 01:02:00So you said they loved her.

TH: Yes.

JNV: What does that mean?

TH: It means that they respected her. They would do anything to please her, even if it meant studying, reading, doin’ those things that we don’t like doin’ as children. [Laughs.] And what she did—she didn’t punish you, but if you did something well, oh, man, she would just say, “Oh, that’s very good.” You felt good about her givin’ you praises, as opposed to her fussin’ at you for not doin’ well. And this is how she got a lot of her students and stuff to do well, because the way she put praise on them for that. 01:03:00You know, it was a lot more gratifying, in a sense, to be praised than to be fussed at. I found myself doin’ my kids the same way. I very—I never switched my daughters or anythin’, but I never had to fuss at them that much, but I always praised them to the point where if they didn’t do well, they didn’t get praised, and that hurt them more than me tryin’ to fuss. [Laughs.] JNV: Okay. Can you provide names and contact information, beyond yourself, of children who interacted with your grandmother?

TH: Okay. My cousin. She’s still living.

JNV: What’s her name?

TH: Doristine Carey.

JNV: Doristine? 01:04:00TH: Yes.

JNV: Curry?

TH: Carey, C-A-R-E-Y. C-A-R-E-Y.

JNV: Okay. Doristine?

TH: Yes. A couple of friends out there that—Imogene McRae [sp?]. Who else is out there?

JNV: What about your siblings?

TH: Oh, yeah. Well, all of my sisters, they remember, my brother. I had one brother that lived. He remembers Grandmother well. Essie Loretta McGowan. She was named after my grandmother. Madeline Carol Gray [sp?].

JNV: Who was that?

TH: Carol Gray.

JNV: Carol Gray? 01:05:00TH: Yes.

JNV: Okay. Thank you. Did she talk about medical doctors or nurses who discriminated against her?

TH: She did, but as far as me remembering those names, I’m not— JNV: Okay. Do you know of any incidents that she may have described?

TH: I’m tryin’ to think. I remember one time there was a lady was havin’ a baby, and she had gotten a white doctor to come out to help deliver it, because back in the day, they would come out to help deliver babies, too. She didn’t have the money, so he left without doin’ anything. And I know that made my grandmother very angry, and she blew her top after that, you know. 01:06:00Now, who it was I can’t remember, but I do remember that it made her very, very angry that he would let just a little bit of money or whatever stop him from doin’ what he was supposed to have done.

JNV: And so after he left, how was the baby delivered?

TH: My grandmother was probably there to help, because—matter of fact, they called her to come over there.

JNV: This was at a house— TH: Yes.

JNV: —at someone’s house?

TH: Yes, it was.

JNV: Okay.

TH: Well, a house in the neighborhood. I remember that.

JNV: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. [Pause.] 01:07:00Did the medical doctors prevent mothers from having children at the hospitals?

TH: That’s a tough question, because I’m not sure that they prevented them from having babies, but they made it more difficult to get in, you know, to find a bed or find the right support functions for them. Black women really had a hard time back in the day, you know, getting medical attention.

JNV: Did your grandmother talk about any of these things?

TH: She did. She did, how difficult it was for women 01:08:00to get good medical attention.

JNV: Was the midwife the community doctor or leader?

TH: Yes.

JNV: You said she was well respected.

TH: Yes. And far as I’m concerned, she did doctor work. She was a leader in the community. She would get everybody together to back a certain point that we were tryin’ to do. 01:09:00JNV: So people looked up to her— TH: They sure did.

JNV: —in the various roles.

TH: Exactly. I know this is weird, but I remember one time there was a preacher in the church she was goin’ to. He had stolen some money, and everybody else was afraid to say anything about it. My grandmother got up and she literally cursed him out in church and told him, “Never come back,” you know? [Laughs.] That’s just the way she was.

JNV: Did he come back?

TH: No. [Laughs.] JNV: Okay. [Laughs.] [Pause.] 01:10:00So she was a church leader as well.

TH: Yes, she was. This was at China Grove Church in Madison, Mississippi.

JNV: 01:11:00Is that in Gluckstadt?

TH: Yes.

JNV: I know exactly where it is.

TH: You know where it is? Okay, then. Yeah, that’s—it was just a little, small building back then, but it’s probably gotten better by now.

JNV: It’s small. It may be larger than— TH: Okay. [Laughs.] JNV: —what it was then. Okay.

TH: Yeah, it was just a little old wood building 01:12:00back then. I remember that. My gosh, it’s been a long, long time.

JNV: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Okay. Did she perform any other kinds of duties within the church other than being an outspoken leader with the final word?

TH: I mean, she did just about everything. She would get the food together on Sundays. And if somebody needed something in the community here—say somebody got burnt out. You know, she would have a drive to get their house fixed, or furniture, or groceries, you know, food. Anything that was needed, she would do.

JNV: Okay. Okay. [Pause.] 01:13:00TH: One thing that she would do, she would go to different houses and stuff. If they had children that should be in school and they weren’t, she’d make sure that they got sent to school, because, like I said, she taught at Rosa Scott, which it’s a big school now, but back then just a little small school for the Black kids in the neighborhood.

JNV: Okay. Well, what stands out most in your mind about her as a midwife?

TH: The fact that all the women would always come to my grandmother for their female problems. And she was well liked. And, you know, she would fuss them out if they weren’t taking care of themselves. You know, 01:14:00she would make food for them. She kept a lot of canned foods, and they would come by to get this or that, or whatever, to make sure they’re healthy, and nutrients were good. She realized the importance of good nutrients back in the day, too. And she kept two big pans of gingerbread for anybody that wanted to come by and get some. [Laughs.] I think everybody that was back in the day remember that gingerbread.

JNV: [Laughs.] I can taste it now.

TH: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. I watched her make it a million times, but I cannot make it to save my life, you know.

JNV: What about lassy bread? 01:15:00TH: Ah, yep. You know, she made those things, too. But my favorite was ginger. [Laughs.] JNV: Okay. [Laughs.] TH: You remember that old molasses bread?

JNV: Oh, yes, yes. That’s what we called it, lassy bread. [Laughs.] TH: Lassy, I know, I know. I remember that.

JNV: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Were there other granny midwives within your family?

TH: No, not in my family.

JNV: Okay. We have just a few more.

TH: No problem.

JNV: Do you know of any granny midwives who were serving in the community during that time?

TH: I know of one lady, but I don’t know her name. I just—I can see her face, but I don’t know her name.

JNV: Okay, okay. 01:16:00TH: And my grandmother and her were very good friends, and they would talk a lot.

JNV: Did males play a role during the midwifery process?

TH: Other than transportation, no.

JNV: Okay. But they played a significant role of transportation.

TH: Yes, transportation.

JNV: So what was the transportation like?

TH: Like I said, cars weren’t that easy to get back then, and they weren’t reliable. So they always made sure that somebody was available in an emergency to take you where you had to go. So that was one thing they always did. I remember a couple of times we’d 01:17:00get stuck on those muddy roads going—in Madison. And we’d get out and try to dig the car out of the ditch, or call somebody with a horse to come pull us out, or those kind of things.

JNV: Okay. Have you shared your story with children within your family?

TH: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. I’ve shared it with my daughters. I sure have. As a matter of fact, one of my daughters is a doctor, and I was telling her about her [read: my] grandmother. She remembers her [read: my] grandmother, too. I have pictures with them. Grandmother wanted me to be a doctor, but that just wasn’t my calling. So she did have one doctor in the family that she recognized, you know.

JNV: Okay. What about your children’s children, like the little ones now who are still growing? 01:18:00Have you shared these things that you’re talking about with any of them?

TH: No. My little nieces and nephews I have, but my daughters have no children. [Laughs.] JNV: Okay, your daughters have no children.

TH: They all doctors and, you know, wants to be actress, and stuff like that. You know, so they just—they all about their professions.

JNV: Okay, okay. And, of course, you said you were going to look into the artifacts.

TH: Yes, I most certainly will. I pretty much know who has a lotta that stuff, and I’m gonna go—matter of fact, I’m gonna stop by today before I leave, goin’ back to Mobile.

JNV: Okay, okay. [Pause.] 01:19:00TH: I’m gonna get those pictures together, too, that I have of my grandmother and her flower yard that she has.

JNV: Yes, that’s right. That would be good. Well, is there anything else, Mr. Henry, that you might want to say regarding your grandmother?

TH: No, you know, but I appreciate you doin’ this thing, because it’s kinda like her legacy. You know, nobody really was there to help her carry it on, but maybe I can help in my own way to get her legacy out there, because she did a whole lot for the community, and she did a whole lot for her family and friends. So I think it’s a very good thing that you’re doing, and not only for the midwifery, but just for the acknowledgement of her for me. It means a lot.

JNV: Okay. We really do appreciate your coming 01:20:00to take this time— TH: Sure, no problem.

JNV: —comin’ from Alabama. I mean, that means a lot, to sit here with you and to listen to you share the things. You’ve shared a lotta significant things. You were saying, “Well, oh, I don’t know if I have a lot to say,” but look at what all I wrote. You’ve got a whole lot— TH: I’m lookin’ at it. [Laughs.] JNV: —[laughs] that you probably weren’t thinking about.

TH: You know, like I said, I didn’t really think about what I was gonna say, but I was gonna let your questions try to bring back memories that was, you know, prevalent to what you were tryin’ to look for. So I hope I’ve been able to help in my own little way. [Laughs.] JNV: Well, you have helped significantly. And for a long-range goal, let me just simply say, since you’re here in Jackson at this time, you are familiar with the Farish Street District— TH: Yes.

JNV: —the historical Farish Street— TH: Yes.

JNV: —where prominence took place back in the day in terms of the doctor you mentioned.

TH: 01:21:00Dr. Christian.

JNV: Right. Well, around the corner from that, right at the end of Farish Street, you’re coming into Cohea Street at some point, and so this is where the two houses, Scott Ford Houses—that’s why we say Scott Ford House Incorporated—are, 136 and 138. And they are side by side. You would recognize those houses, because of the way they look. That’s the site for the museum complex that Dr. Alferdteen Harrison, the executive director of this project, is working on. Ultimately, it will be available. They’re in the process of working on restoration and gathering funds, that type of thing. But down the road, it is projected 01:22:00that that is the site for tourists, for scholars, for youth in the neighborhood and other folks in the neighborhood, to come to listen, to watch you tell your story, for instance, on the kiosk, like they do at the museums that are already open for us to go, and we listen to Dr. [Martin Luther] King [Jr.] and the others. And I was asking you about the children within your family, because this project is projecting an essay contest, and the children will be doing the essay and mentioning the winners will be on the kiosks, and they will be saying what their storyteller, like you, told them about their granny midwife.

TH: That’s great.

JNV: So those are the things that we’re looking at, 01:23:00and that’s one of the reasons why I have been asking about the artifacts, things like that, in terms of the contributions, the other contributions, that your grandmother Essie made, Miss Essie Parker. So this is really wonderful. And we take the time now to thank you for coming— TH: Well, sure. You’re very welcome.

JNV: —’cause we know you came from miles and miles to share.

TH: That’s okay. It meant a lot to me, sure.

JNV: Yes. We are so grateful. And once again, our videographer is Miss Edna Harris, and I know that she has done a significant job here this morning in video recording, and we thank you so much.

TH: [To Edna Harris] Thank you from me, too.

EH: Thank you, sir. Yes, sir. Thank you. [END OF INTERVIEW]