Dr. Lessie Hayes

LESSIE HAYES: [inaudible] That’s her. That’s the only pictures that I actually do have.

JANICE NEAL-VINCENT: Okay, [inaudible].

HARRIS: Do you mind if I take a picture of the pictures?

LH: Oh, no, ma’am. I’m sorry. This is her at the end with her husband. Okay. [inaudible]. Let’s see. I started to [inaudible]. Let me do another day. But you know what? We have been pressing and pressing, and I said, “Let me [inaudible].” JNV: I know you are very busy, but I’m so happy I could snatch you today. [Laughs.] Have you [inaudible]?

LH: Yes, ma’am.

JNV: Because I know you’ve been working on this a long time.

LH: Well, you 00:01:00know, the funny thing about it? I hadn’t worked on this portion of it. But you’re spirited.

JNV: Well, I mean in terms of trying to round your family up.

LH: Yes, ma’am.

JNV: I’ll be reporting to the [inaudible] committee [sp?]. Are you ready?

LH: Yes, ma’am. Do you want me to smile?

JNV: One more time. Thank you. I know how it is. And everybody has a schedule, so, we have to deal with that too.

LH: And then, some people don’t see the importance. They don’t see the importance. Now, where is she from? She was from this [inaudible]. She’s from that [inaudible]. I know they’re not very good.

HARRIS: Oh, no, that’s okay [sp?].

LH: That’s all they had. Okay [laughs]. What’s your name?

HARRIS: My name is Edna Harris or Trina [sp?]. You can call me Trina.

LH: Trina.

HARRIS: Yes, ma’am.

LH: Are you—you said Ed Harrison [sp?]?

HARRIS: Harris.

LH: Harris, okay.

HARRIS: Just 00:02:00Harris, not the son on the end. Yes, ma’am. Yes, ma’am.

LH: [Laughs] Okay, Harris, alright. Good to see you. Are you here in the Jackson State—in the media program?

HARRIS: No, ma’am. I’m just helping out with the Kellogg program. Yes, ma’am.

LH: Great. Well, I’m Lessie Hayes. I’m an alumni [laughs] of—I’m trying to say alma mater. [Laughs.] I’m an alumni of Jackson State.

JNV: You wear so many hats.

LH: Yes, I do. [Laughs.] So, I’m trying—oh, wait a minute. I think I just—oh, there it is.

JNV: So, when you get ready— LH: Yes, ma’am.

JNV: We can get started [sp?] [inaudible].

LH: Yeah. Okay. So, I have where she was from. And I didn’t know if you wanted to—my cousin is Marian Hudson [sp?], who knows a little bit more. So, you just talk to me about this, and then, we can—I don’t know what we can— JNV: Yes, after the interview— LH: —you’re going to call her. 00:03:00JNV: —I will do transcription. I will transcribe, type up everything you said here that I’m writing, and I will send it to you. Then, you’ll know what has been said and where to go from there.

LH: Okay. Did you want—okay, but— [Recording stops, restarts.] JNV: As soon as you get ready.

LH: Okay. [Laughter.] Okay. I guess I’m as ready as I— JNV: You’re ready, Dr. Hayes. You know, you’re always organized.

LH: I’m trying to be.

JNV: You’re ready.

LH: Okay. Go ahead. I may not be able to answer these questions. But go ahead.

HARRIS: You can start.

JNV: Good morning. I’m Dr. Janice K. Neal-Vincent, oral historian for Scott Ford Houses, Incorporated and W.K. Kellogg. I have with me today Dr. Lessie Hayes, who is my interviewee regarding this particular project 00:04:00on Mississippi granny midwives. It is now June 1, 2021. Dr. Hayes, can you tell me the time period when you knew of a granny midwife who worked with you and/or your relatives? Specifically, with whom did she work?

LH: Thank you, Dr. Vincent, for this opportunity to talk about the granny midwife in our family. As far as I know of in the information that I’ve received, she worked with some of our family members and the community in Jeff Davison [sp?] County. That is near Prentiss, Mississippi in southern Mississippi. The time period in which she actually was working—that 00:05:00I’m not very, very sure of, but I do know that it had to be after the 1920s because she’s listed in the family census of 1920. They were in Beat Five of Walthall County. So, she was still listed with her mom and her siblings at that time. So, it had to be sometime after that, in the 1920s.

JNV: Okay. I see that you’ve done your research among the family members.

LH: Yes, ma’am. [Laughter.] JNV: Wonderful. So, the community or the county in which she lived—you said it was Jeff Davison County— LH: Yes, ma’am, but— JNV: —in Prentiss?

LH: In Prentiss, Mississippi, yes. It was in Jeff Davison County and also some 00:06:00of the surrounding counties too because here, they’re in Walthall County. That’s another county that’s next to Jeff Davison County. And then, I don’t know if she did any work in Covington. But I do know—okay, we’re talking about the 1920 census here, but past there, there was another county where she was involved with too.

JNV: Okay. And what was the name of the community? Did the community have a name?

LH: If it did, I don’t have that information.

JNV: Don’t have information [sp?], okay.

LH: Yes, ma’am.

JNV: What was racism like? Were there racial relations within this particular county?

LH: When you say “race relations” — JNV: Black and white.

LH: Black and white. Were they getting along or were they not 00:07:00getting along?

JNV: That’s what I want you to say. Let me know. What were they like? Was there a mixture of those things? I know that different personalities come with something. And so, did she experience racism in any kind of way?

LH: In any type of way. I would say that she did. Now, of course, I wasn’t living in that time, so I have to go by what I was told, by the stories of the family and all, but I would say that she did experience racism because I remember—and I’m one of the people who are one of the later historians in our family, and I’m doing the family history, and I have a family chart here and all. And I was told that she would let people know, as far as her help was concerned, that she was there to help them. And it wasn’t anything that the county sent her to do or anything. She was there to help people who could not afford to go 00:08:00to the hospitals at that time. And I do know of one of my living relatives—at this time—I contacted her prior to our interview. It was supposed to be that she was the last in her family that Adline Adams [sp?] delivered, and I asked her would she please look on her birth certificate to see if she was listed, and she said she would. But her sister, whom we’re going to call and talk to—she’ll probably mention this too—told their mom at that time, “This was the last one that you can have at home.” For whatever reason, the mother was having difficulties, some type—something about the back. And so, she was saying that—Adline Adams—that’s the midwife’s name—advised her not to have another child at home after that child.

JNV: Okay. And at that time, about how many children had been delivered within 00:09:00your family?

LH: Within my cousin’s family—let’s see. That would have been—let me see. I don’t know the answer to that, but when we talk to her, we can ask her ’cause she is one of the siblings, so she would know.

JNV: And you say that the granny midwife’s name was Adline— LH: Uh-huh. You spell it— JNV: —Adams?

LH: —A-D-L-I-N-E.

JNV: A-D-A-L-I-N-E?

LH: Uh-uh [negative]. A-D-L-I-N-E.

JNV: Okay. Thank you.

LH: Yeah. Now, I’ll be honest with you. There’s really two spellings, and we’re not really sure exactly which way, but the way the family has always said it was Adaline [sp?].

JNV: Okay because that’s how I was writing it with phonetics [laughter].

LH: Yes, A-D-A-L-I-N-E. But in the census, it’s spelled—or in the family history—I’m sorry—A-D-L-I-N-E. I would go with the A-D-A [laughs]. Yes, ma’am.

JNV: That’s good 00:10:00to know.

LH: It is. Yes.

JNV: Was she a member—yes, she was a member of your family. How old was she? Do you recall any of that?

LH: How old was she— JNV: How old was she during the—yes, how old was she? How old was she when she was practicing midwifery?

LH: Okay. Let’s see here.

JNV: She was born when?

LH: Okay, yeah. She was born in 1884. Okay? [Laughter.] We might can figure it out. She was born in 1884. She married at the age of 21. She had no schooling. At that time, she lived in Beat Two, Marion County, Mississippi, which—I’m not sure which city that is. I want to say Columbus or something like that.

JNV: And she passed when?

LH: Oh, that part of it— JNV: You 00:11:00don’t know that right off?

LH: I don’t have that right—I have it somewhere, but I don’t have it right off. I don’t have it right off.

JNV: Okay. Did she practice catching babies beyond the family members?

LH: Yes, yes. She practiced within the community. Yes. I do know that part.

JNV: Do you know roughly about how many babies overall?

LH: I don’t. But the cousin that we’re going to talk to, she may. I don’t know.

JNV: And where is this cousin living?

LH: The cousin is living in—well, her home is in Prentiss. Her home is in Prentiss, yes.

JNV: Did the midwife catch white babies as well?

LH: I’m not sure about that. Yeah.

JNV: Why did she catch babies outside of the medical clinics and hospitals?

LH: Because the family members were not able to 00:12:00afford medical attention at that time. You know, the hospitals—that being rural Mississippi, Blacks were not allowed to go to the hospitals that were available at that time. And I’m not even sure—that’s something good to research to see which hospitals were available. But they weren’t allowed to go. So, in our family, I can say this, tracing all the way back to the slave Riley [sp?]—he was taught—he came through—he was a slave under a doctor. So, they learned—what is it when you—that medicine when you—herb, herbal medicines. So, they learned how to do the herbs. So, that passed down through the family. And so, I’m sure that helped steer Adline to say, “We can do this.” And I feel assured 00:13:00by that, by doing the other family research, that that’s what led her to that.

JNV: So, the herbs were passed down. What did you say the gentleman’s name was?

LH: The gentleman—oh, Riley Buckley [sp?] was the— JNV: And what happened to Riley Buckley?

LH: Well— NEAL VINCENT: Did he pass the legacy down?

LH: I feel like he did because my great grandfather was Hardy Buckley [sp?], and he knew how to use the herbs. And so, I felt like Riley, coming through the family of the doctor that he was under—because he was given to the daughter—that they passed that information down.

JNV: Okay. Okay. Was the midwife, according to your knowledge, refused opportunities to catch babies in medical clinics and/or hospitals?

LH: I’m not sure about that. Yeah, I’m not sure. [Recording stops, restarts.] JNV: Did racism interfere with the midwife catching babies?

LH: I’m sure it did 00:14:00in those days because we have to look at what was happening in society. It’s not a lot—[laughs] when a group of people in society want to be the first and best group, of course they don’t want the other group to populate and have more babies. Of course they want to annihilate them, push them back. We’ve always been, as a race, pushed back and not wanting to bring forth, so I’m sure she faced that.

JNV: Okay. [Pause.] Well, did she talk about medical doctors or nurses who discriminated against her?

LH: Well, we’ll have to ask some 00:15:00of the older cousins because I [laughter] don’t know.

JNV: Okay. Okay. That’s good enough.

LH: Yes, ma’am.

JNV: Find them before they go.

LH: Yes, ma’am. [Laughter.] Yes.

JNV: Did medical doctors prevent mothers from having children, the Black mothers? You said that she delivered among the Blacks. So, did they prevent the mothers from going to the hospitals and clinics?

LH: That’s an interesting question. I don’t know that—the way I look at that question is the saying—did the doctors prevent that? I wouldn’t say, per se, it was only the doctors. I say it was the system. The entire system may have prevented Black families, Black mothers from going to the hospitals because you have 00:16:00to look at the times that they were living in and how they came through the times. If you weren’t allowed to go and seek medical attention—and, definitely, you’re not going to feel like you’re welcome at their facilities. And I think that some people did try to go to the facilities. I know my families—they’re bold, and so, they probably [laughs] did try to go to some of the facilities, and they may have been turned around. But if we can say—if we want to be fair about it, was it just the doctors? I wouldn’t say it was just the doctors. I say it may have been the doctors and the entire system.

JNV: Okay, the system.

LH: Yes, ma’am.

JNV: Did the midwife have a certificate?

LH: That was something that we’ve been looking for to see if she had a certificate. Now, when I did research looking for her in the census, they didn’t mention that she was a midwife. They definitely mentioned that she was a farmer, okay? 00:17:00That she—at the age of 45, she was an operator of a farm. They mentioned that she actually adopted a couple of—I guess you could say family members. Maybe the mom had passed away or something, and she did adopt kids. But I have not found the certificate just yet.

JNV: Okay. And so, based on those findings, you probably have not learned anything about her being certified by the county.

LH: Right. I have not. Mm-mm [negative].

JNV: How as the midwife compensated for catching babies?

LH: Right. I’m glad that you asked that question because it’s very interesting. I do know the answer to that one. She was compensated by—well now, of course, some people were able to pay money. The amount—I asked the one lady that actually knew that, and she could not remember the amount 00:18:00at the time. But if they did not have the money to pay her, by it being a farming community, she was paid through crops. She was paid through potatoes, and onion, and peas, and any crop that they grew. They made sure that she was well supplied. Ms. Adline Adams, as far as I understood, fed the neighborhood out of her abundance, wealth from doing what she was doing. She collected food. And I, from the history, understand that they liked to have a few barbecues down by the riverside. [Laughs.] And she was part of making sure that there was plenty of food. Yes, ma’am.

JNV: Okay. All right. So, it doesn’t seem, from what you’re saying here, that she was suffering for anything among the community.

LH: I don’t think that she was truly suffering. I don’t think so. But what I did find out is that, 00:19:00at her funeral, there was some—there was talk that some of the—maybe it had been right before her funeral, before she passed—that there were talk that some people still owed her for the deliveries. They had not paid her. And, you know, she was a forgiving person, I would imagine, but there were people who still owed her even upon her death.

JNV: Okay. Interesting. Was she forced into retirement? I remember you said that she did not receive formal education or training, but was she forced into retirement in terms of what she did do as a midwife?

LH: I’m not sure if she was forced into retirement. That’s a good question. I’m not sure about that.

JNV: Okay. What were the family relations like with 00:20:00her? You seem to be talking so fondly of her. So, what was she like? Did she make and bake biscuits? Did she pinch off the biscuits and give some to the children? What was she like as a person despite being a midwife?

LH: Yes, ma’am. My understanding from the research of Adline Adams that she was a family person. She loved her family. She loved cooking. She, herself, was from a—I’ll say a midsize family. When you look in the 1920 census, she’s listed with—let’s see—one, two, three, four, five—five other siblings, and I—there were others past there as well. Her mom was originally a Buckley, and I think 00:21:00she married an Aldi [sp?] and then married a Reagan [sp?] or something like that. The Adams is from Adline actually marrying a man by the name of Adams. And so, getting back to your question that you originally asked me, she was a family lady. She loved the community. She loved her church work. And of course, she loved all the babies. And that’s what we do have. Now, I was trying to identify what baby this was she was holding, but she’s actually holding one of the babies that she birthed here, and we don’t know which one it was. But she was kind of like the community babysitter as well. I understand that, when they had to come to Jackson—you know, sometimes they would have to come for commodities and whatever, things that they didn’t have in that area—that [laughs] she was the one that everybody would drop the babies off with. So, she was like a community 00:22:00babysitter too. Yes, ma’am.

JNV: Very good. [Recording stops, restarts.] JNV: That one is well rested there on her knee. [Laughter.] LH: Sure is. Kind of comfortable looking there like, “Hmm.” JNV: Do you recall any contributions she made within the family—I think you talked about this—and/or community beyond catching babies? So, can you say more here from number 17, question 17, in terms of her going beyond the family? And I know you mentioned that the members of the community would leave the babies with her when they would go away.

LH: Right.

JNV: Was there something else that may have happened there? Did she read to the children? Did she sing with the children? Sometimes, they had different games that the adults played, and they invented them along— LH: —the way.

JNV: —the way based on the personalities of the children 00:23:00and their own personalities.

LH: Right, right. Now, that’s interesting because I need to ask my family members because a lot—a majority of the family could sing. A lot of them could sing. I’m not sure that—did she sing to the children or not? That part I don’t know, but the cousin that we’re going to call—maybe she may know or may have heard. But as far as working with them and her contribution—I want to say that I do know she gave quite a bit of contribution to her church. So, she was an active church member. I don’t know what all they did in those days, but I know when I would go back home to the family reunions and all, we’d meet on the little church grounds, and, of course, we had some very good cooks in our family. So, I’m sure—I’m positive because Adline was one who contributed 00:24:00to the cooking in the family. Now, one of the things I do remember a cousin saying [laughs] that happened one time was she was a bold individual in her things that she did for her church. You know how the men would get in front of the church and—what is that thing called when they pray—they say the prayer right before the service? I can’t think of the name of it right now, but in a lot of the Black churches, the Black Baptist churches—it’s like the hymns and stuff that they did before, the moans and stuff. You know, the men would pray. Well, see, Adline would jump down there real quick. You know, that was uncommon for a women to [laughs]— JNV: For a woman.

LH: —jump down in line with the two or three men praying. They say Adline would jump down—“Oh Father”—[laughs] and say she was a very praying woman. She was a praying woman. And it didn’t bother her that they didn’t invite her there. She did it anyway. 00:25:00That’s my understanding. It made me laugh.

JNV: So, despite the protocol, she just did what she thought she would do.

LH: She just did what she thought was right. Yes, ma’am.

JNV: How many babies did she catch in the family?

LH: I have no idea of that. I’ve been trying to find out.

JNV: Trying to find— LH: Yeah. As far as what I’ve found out so far, I can say one, two—[laughs] this is a poor number, but I know she caught more than—I know of—I’ve heard of five, but I know she caught more than that.

JNV: So, at least five— LH: At least five.

JNV: —in your family.

LH: Yeah.

JNV: Do you have any—or the family. Does the family have any certificates, any birth certificates regarding these babies?

LH: I have a cousin who—the lady we’re going to talk to, her two siblings prior to her or—she said she wasn’t caught by Adline, but two of her siblings were caught. 00:26:00And I did contact one of them and asked her to look on her birth certificate to see if her name was mentioned, and she said she would and get back with me.

JNV: Okay. That is just really remarkable. She was an outstanding person.

LH: [Laughs.] Yes, ma’am.

JNV: Now, did she have any assistance during these five births? Did anybody help her? Sometimes a person in the family might have been warming water. Someone else might have been calming the mother, fanning her, whatever, during the process. Someone may have been transporting her to go in and out to the different persons within the neighborhood, if that was so. So, what kind of assistance, if any, did she have?

LH: You know, 00:27:00I’m going to speculate here, and I have to say speculate because I don’t have concrete evidence, and sometimes I’m going by just what I have actually heard. And it might be on that interview that I have recorded, but I feel like she did have some assistance because her—I’m trying to think of which one it was. Isabella [sp?] was her sister, and I think Isabella helped Adline sometimes because they were a close-knit family. So, being a close-knit family, I don’t see that her sister would not have possibly helped her doing some of this.

JNV: Did they live in the same house?

LH: At one time, they did, until she got married to Will Stanley [sp?]. I mean Adams, until she got married to the Adams man.

JNV: Okay. Do you have a story about a Black doctor 00:28:00within the community?

LH: Black doctor? Within our family or— NEAL VINCENT: Within the— LH: —that community?

JNV: —community in which the family lived at the time that Adline was living.

LH: Black doctor.

JNV: Do you recall family members talking about a Black doctor in terms of systemic racism, which is why the Black doctor was in the neighborhood?

LH: Right, right, right. I don’t recall that. Yes, ma’am. Yes, ma’am. There could have been one, but I don’t recall.

JNV: Okay. Did Adline spend time with any of the children she caught?

LH: Oh, yes, ma’am. Every [sp?]— JNV: Was she around them during their growing years?

LH: Yes, ma’am, she was. She was.

JNV: So, what did she do with them— LH: Babysit. [Laughs.] JNV: —as they were growing up?

LH: Oh, as they were growing up? I don’t know. Well, let’s go back. We have to go back to what type of 00:29:00community it was. Remember it was a farming community. And so, what I understand is, if you were a child during that time, you went to school to a certain age. And then, after that, when you became of age to pick crops, then, to help the families, to help your family, you were sent to the fields to pick crops. Now, I understand that our family was all about education. So, therefore, they wanted the children to go to school to a certain point. But then, you also had to work. So, you had to either work the fields, work the house, or work the land around the house. And so, I’m sure that Cousin Adline—she was one of those that helped guide the children into how pick the peas and show them, possibly, how to carry the—there had to be a—there’s 00:30:00a bin type thing. I’ve seen the old bins. And then, we have people who weave baskets in our family. So, they made the baskets for those peas and things. So, I’m sure she taught the children how to do that. Yeah. And then, I understood she carried that little switch too. She kept them in line. [Laughter.] JNV: Okay. Taught them how to [inaudible].

LH: Behave. Yes, ma’am. Yes, ma’am. She was [inaudible].

JNV: How did the children interact with her?

LH: Well, as far as I know of and what I’ve heard, they liked her. They did. They liked her a lot. As a matter of fact, sometimes, when you’re short and you’re close to their size, [laughs] they kind of associate with you a little bit, and she was a short lady. She wasn’t a very tall lady.

JNV: Okay. Okay. So, they may have looked at her as a peer [laughter]— LH: Maybe. Well, they— JNV: —in some instances when she actually was the granny.

LH: Yeah. Well, that’s true too. Well now, they’re not gonna forget that she was a granny. 00:31:00She was one of those stern ones that was like, “Okay, you’re not gonna get out of line with me.” [Recording stops, restarts.] JNV: Can you provide names and contact information of the children who interacted with Adline?

LH: No, ma’am. I cannot. I only have the one that I told you. We’re going to talk to her sister shortly, and her name was Rachel [sp?]. Her name is Rachel Pitman [sp?] now, and she’s looking to see is Cousin Adline is listed on her birth certificate. Right. Yes, ma’am.

JNV: Did she talk about medical doctors or nurses who discriminated against her?

LH: I have no idea about that.

JNV: Okay. Did medical doctors prevent mothers from having children at the hospitals?

LH: You know that question is very similar to a question that you asked earlier, and like I said, [laughs] I related it to the entire system and not just the doctors. Right. Yes, ma’am. Mm-hmm 00:32:00 [affirmative].

JNV: Okay. [Pause.] Was she a community leader or doctor within the community? You said you didn’t know about any Black doctor. So, was she, in some capacities, a doctor in terms of herbs? Did she use herbs in any kind of way? How did she use the herbs?

LH: Now, I know—I would think that she did use the herbs in—now, I don’t know about “naming her as a doctor,” but I can say that, because our family—that history was passed down on how to use the herbs, I feel assured that she did. I was not there, but I feel assured that she used the herbs in ways like boiling the teas. They 00:33:00boiled the teas. There were certain leaves and all they may have had you to sniff. You know, you would put up under your nose or put it—if you had a skin rash, there were certain leaves and herbs that you put on the skin—I mean, put the leaves on the rash and it would help. So, I’m sure those are the ways in which she would use some of the herbs because that information was passed down in our family.

JNV: Okay. Was she—well, you’ve answered this—active in the community or church?

LH: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

JNV: What stands out most in your mind about Adline?

LH: What stands out most in my mind is that everybody knew her name. Everybody knew her name. It was like you couldn’t say Adline Adams unless—“Oh yeah. [inaudible] Adline Adams.” [Laughter.] And I was like—this lady had to be more than life in her community because, a lot of the times—I mean, it takes a lot for someone 00:34:00to know your name. So, that means that you’ve been around, you’ve been doing some things, and, like I said, a bold individual. [Laughter.] So, that was what stood out to me. You can mention Adline Adams, and people even in the family—outside of the family will all, like, “Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. She’s from that Buckley tribe.” Her mom was originally a Buckley. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yes, ma’am.

JNV: Were there other granny midwives within your family?

LH: Directly in the family, I don’t know, but I know within the community there were. But I don’t know directly in the family. This is the only one I know that was directly.

JNV: Do you know the names of the ones who were in the community?

LH: I did write a name down real quick for you [laughs] right before I came. Let’s see. Yes, there—oh, well, no. I take that back. 00:35:00She moved up to Hinds County. Her name was Rachel Smith [sp?]. That was one of the other midwives that moved. She was there, but she came, and she practices in Hinds County.

JNV: Okay, okay. She practiced in Hinds.

LH: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm [affirmative]. So, there are others, but I don’t have the names. I was hoping that my cousin would provide those names to us. [Laughs.] JNV: Well, maybe as you talk about what happened in this interview, she might get excited— LH: I hope so.

JNV: —and come aboard.

LH: Yes, ma’am.

JNV: Did males play a role? Did they play a role? Did they transport, for instance, Adline to the sites to deliver?

LH: Right, I don’t know.

JNV: Did they help her with logging or something like that, anything on the land? What were they like?

LH: Well, the one story that I did hear about is that they made sure that 00:36:00the logs for the fire was cut, so that could have been a help. And, you know, then, they had to cook on the wood burning stoves. And so, they provided the logs and stuff like that for the wood burning stoves to heat the water up to help with towels and whatever she needed for the birthing situation. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. And they could have been the watchout person outside making sure—“Okay, no, you can’t go in because this is going on right now.” Yeah. Interesting question. [Laughs.] JNV: Yes. Have you shared your story with children within your family?

LH: I have not, and you have brought it to our light that we should share this story. What people thought about was, “Oh, we didn’t think this was important.” I mean, that’s— literally was said. “Oh, 00:37:00we didn’t think that they wanted to know much about it,” you know? So, this is great. This brings a lot of light to something that people didn’t think about to bring light to.

JNV: And so, I have something to help them think once this is over. Do you have any—yes, you have some artifacts. And so— LH: Just a few.

JNV: Yes, we’re so grateful that you’ve brought those along. And there is a donor form that I will need to mail you. I’ll need to get that donor form since you do have some artifacts. You want to call your relative?

LH: I can, yeah.

JNV: Okay.

LH: Yeah. Okay. [Recording stops, restarts.] LH: Okay. Now, say something Rachel—I mean, not Rachel. I mean [laughs] Marian. Marian.

MARIAN: Yes.

LH: Okay. Let me find something. All right. One moment.

JNV: Hello, Marian?

M: Yes, 00:38:00this is Marian.

JNV: Yes, this is the interviewer, Dr. Neal-Vincent. How are you today?

M: I’m doing fine. How are you?

JNV: Wonderful. We are just enjoying these great responses that Dr. Hayes has given here, and I’m wondering, what is it that you can tell me about Adline within your family, the Mississippi granny midwife?

M: Well, I know that—I knew her. I was a child at the time, but I know that she came to our house on two occasions to deliver two of my siblings, one brother who was born in 1950, I think, because he’s 10 years younger than me, and my sister, 00:39:00which would have been two years—I guess it would have been ’52. So, that’s basically what I remember. I do remember her, and I remember her coming to the house twice.

JNV: Okay. Now, when she came—excuse me—and you were a child, what was that like for you? Did you see the baby that she was catching? When did the baby come? How did you know about her delivering the baby? Tell me about that. Were you in the room? Were you outside the room?

M: Well, they always took us out when [laughs] my little brother was born. Yeah, they would always [inaudible] early for my brother, and she wasn’t quite ready because they had to turn the baby around. They had taken us away over 00:40:00to my aunt’s house, and my brother was not born that night. So then, she had to come back again about two weeks later, and we were at home, but we were not in the room. They wouldn’t allow us to be in the room, but we were in the next room, you know, ’cause we were in a three room house. But no, they didn’t allow us to be in the room. I think I was 10 when my brother was born. And when my sister was born, she—I was not in the room, but my mother went into labor before anybody was there. We were in school, and I guess the little children were there. But when we got home from school, my mother was already in bed, and she told me what to do, 00:41:00you know, and—about the other children. And I had to try to get a hold of my daddy. He wasn’t home either. I think that child was born before she got there because my daddy was late getting there, and I had to—when he got home, I told him that he had to go get the midwife, Ms. Adline. And so, my mother—the baby was born, and she just pushed it to the side herself.

JNV: She pushed the baby to the side?

M: Yeah, so it wouldn’t be harmed in any way, I guess, until they got there, until she got there. So, that was with Rachel because I remember her saying to my daddy that that should be the last one she should have at home. 00:42:00 Yes.

JNV: Okay. That makes me think about what my mother told me. I’m the last of four children out of 10, a midwife baby, and my mother would always say down through the years she had such a hard time with me. I was born at four a.m., and she told my father she was not going to have any more babies at home, and she didn’t. All of the others were born in the hospital. Now, with you, in terms of assisting, you said that you—did you give your mother a gown or she asked you give her a gown?

M: She was already in bed. When we got home from school, she was already—she had already done that for herself, and she was in the bed, and she was covered. And she had pushed—the baby was born. She pushed to the side until she [inaudible] could get her. And 00:43:00she just told me then what to do. And so, I had to go do whatever had to be done for the other children that were there, had to keep them out of the room. I got them out of the room.

JNV: Okay. You got the children out. So, did any of the children see what was happening as their mother was going through? But you protected them from all of that.

M: I don’t think so. I don’t think so, but she told me what would happen, and she told me what was going on. But they didn’t see it.

JNV: Okay. All right. Can you remember any other granny midwives within your family?

M: Yes, on the other side of my family. This lady—cousin Adline—she’s on my daddy’s 00:44:00side of the family. But my grandmother, my mother’s mother—she did that also up in Hinds County.

JNV: Okay. What was her name?

M: Her name was Rachel Robinson Smith [sp?].

JNV: Okay. Tell me about her and what you know about her as a midwife.

M: Well, basically, I just know that that’s what she did. She worked with Dr. Allred [sp?] that was out there in—I don’t know, Clinton, or Bolton, or Raymond, in all those little areas, in that area up there. And she used to deliver babies, and I know that they used to say about her—even the doctor said that about her, that she really—she could be a nurse or whatever because she was really good at it, and she would help him out as well. So, I guess she delivered a lot of babies 00:45:00of people that were his patients.

JNV: Was the doctor white or Black?

M: He was white.

JNV: Okay. Did she ever talk about any Black doctors within these surroundings you called out, Canton, Raymond, Hinds?

M: No, she didn’t. I don’t remember that she did, and if she did, maybe I didn’t realize that they were—what nationality they were or whatever as a child because I was really a child then. Yeah. Uh-huh [affirmative]. But I know there were doctors. I came in contact with the Black doctors in Jackson, but that was after I moved—about 18 or 19.

JNV: Well, let me ask you this. Have you shared your story with any of the children within your family, wherever 00:46:00they may be? Have you shared it with any of the children? Because we have an essay contest that is going on here, and we have a deadline. We want the children in the elementary, the middle, and the high schools to participate in it based on what the storytelling within the family like you and Dr. Hayes would tell them so that they can— M: Well— JNV: —learn something about the contributions, if they don’t already know, of the Mississippi granny midwife to continue her legacy.

M: Okay. I know my siblings have heard the stories, and I don’t know if they told their children. I mean, I know I told my children. And then, some of the other children of my 00:47:00grandmother. I could call some of them and find out what they know.

JNV: Okay. Well, does Dr. Hayes have your contact information? Because before she leaves, I’m going to give her some information, this flyer, that explains what I was talking about, and I want to get the information to you. There are also essay guidelines that I will forward. I didn’t bring those along today, but there are essay guidelines, which tell you what the project is all about and what the children need to do in order to write a good essay, anywhere from elementary age to high school.

M: Okay, to high school. Okay.

JNV: Well, I thank you so much for your time, and I’m so glad that Dr. Hayes thought about having you to talk during this interview because 00:48:00my interview with you has revealed some things that needed to be said here about what was going on within your family along with what Dr. Hayes has shared, the many things that she has shared.

M: Oh, well, happy to [inaudible]— JNV: Oh, there’s one other question I want to ask you regarding how she was paid. How was Adline paid for her delivery services?

M: Cash. Is that what you mean?

JNV: She was paid cash?

M: Yes.

JNV: Like how much? Twenty-five cents, a dollar, $1.50. [Laughter.] You know, we’re looking at a time period, and back then, 25 cents was a whole lot because I remember coming up, bread was five cents, you see? And now, we cannot get anything for five cents worth anything, you see. So, tell me about that money.

M: I know that my dad 00:49:00had paid, but I can’t remember the exact amount. But I know it wasn’t twenty-five cents. It was probably more like $20 or— JNV: Like $20?

M: Twenty or twenty-five dollars. [Inaudible.] JNV: Okay. Per child? Per baby?

M: Yes.

JNV: Okay. And was she compensated in any other kind of way?

M: Not that I know of. I can’t recall.

JNV: Well, I thank you again for this. We have to cut this great interview off, but you have revealed a lot of detailed information. And I’m, again, glad that Dr. Hayes called you so that this could be done. This is, of course, being recorded, video recorded, and it’s unfortunate that you could not come and sit here with us. Ms. Edna Harris is 00:50:00the videographer. And at some point along the way with this great project, the public will be made aware of this interview. And so, I’m happy and want you to have a great day.

M: Okay. Same to you, and thanks so much.

JNV: And thank you so much, and God take care.

LH: God bless. All right. And I’ll call you later. Okay, bye-bye.

JNV: Dr. Hayes, I’m so happy that you were able to come, find a pause from the productive busy schedule. I know how it is. My eyes need clothespins on them. And so, we still have to do what we have to do, but I’m glad you took the time today to come to be with us.

LH: Thank you.

JNV: And we do—is that off now?

HARRIS: No, ma’am.

JNV: Oh, okay. And so, as I pointed out, I do have some materials I want to 00:51:00share with you, and community is yet awaiting for this particular interview.

LH: Yes, ma’am.

JNV: Thank you.

LH: Thank you. [END OF INTERVIEW]