Rosie Lee Lloyd

[side conversation] DR. JANICE K. NEAL-VINCENT: 00:01:00 Hello.

ROSIE LEE LLOYD: Hello.

JKNV: I’m Dr. Janice K. Neal-Vincent, oral historian for Scott Ford House, Inc. and W.K. Kellogg team. Dr. Alferdteen Harrison is the Executive Director of this project. It’s Friday, July 30, 2021. I’m accommodated in this video recording by Mr. O’cean Brewer [sp?]. I have a series of questions pertaining to a Mississippi granny midwife in the Delta region, and at this time I would like for you to please state your name.

RLL: 00:02:00Rosa Lee Lloyd.

JKNV: Rosa Lee Lloyd. May I have permission to interview you?

RLL: Yes, you have.

JKNV: Thank you. What was the time period when you knew of a granny midwife who worked with you, and/or your relatives?

RLL: Back—the time period when I was a young child. My aunt was a midwife. I didn’t have any dealin’ with her because I was in school then, but in the ’50s, when I start havin’ children, that’s when I worked with the midwife.

JKNV: Okay, in the ’50s.

RLL: Uh-huh [affirmative].

JKNV: 00:03:00So in what community and/or county did you and the midwife live?

RLL: In Washington County.

JKNV: Okay, Washington County.

RLL: Yeah, at that time. My aunt, we lived in Claiborne County.

JKNV: Okay. That was before the ’50s?

RLL: That was before the ’50s, when I was a child.

JKNV: Okay, mm-hmm [affirmative]. So now where is Claiborne County? Is that near here?

RLL: That’s down by Alcorn College.

JKNV: Okay, okay.

RLL: I think the birth 00:04:00certificate say Jefferson, but they right in there together, the two counties.

JKNV: Okay. What was the community and/or county like here in Washington County? What were they like? Were there, for instance, race relations? And, if so, what were they like?

RLL: Well, I really wasn’t out there, because I had children so fast until I didn’t have time to, you know, to mingle with that kinda stuff until later on, after I had children.

JKNV: Okay. So this was during the ’50s, when you had time— RLL: During the ’50s.

JKNV: Okay. 00:05:00So after the ’50s, as the children were coming, what do you recall about the race relations?

RLL: Well, I was a young lady when Emmett Till—during that brutal murder, and when the people from the North came down to help out the South, down in South Mississippi—they had took the bulldozer and buried the bodies of the people, the three of ’em that came down to help.

JKNV: The three Civil Rights workers.

RLL: Right, the three Civil Right workers.

JKNV: Two Jews and the Black, okay.

RLL: Right.

JKNV: Okay. Tell me about that. Can you recall what those relations were like in reference to these two murders, Emmett Till and the three Civil Rights workers? For instance, was the Washington 00:06:00community, where you and the granny midwife were during the ’50s, composed of all Blacks? Was it mixed? Were there whites on one side? Were there Blacks on the other side? What was that like?

RLL: It was whites on one side and Black on the other side.

JKNV: Okay.

RLL: And I could mostly remember the granny midwife that was my aunt, she had moved here then, and she was out gettin’ the people to go out to vote.

JKNV: The granny midwife was?

RLL: Uh-huh [affirmative].

JKNV: Okay. What was her name?

RLL: Mary Lightfoot. Mary Lee Lightfoot.

JKNV: 00:07:00The community here in Washington County.

RLL: Yes.

JKNV: Okay, getting people to vote.

RLL: Right.

JKNV: Did she have any problems with that?

RLL: She never discussed it with me.

JKNV: Okay. Because you were a child.

RLL: I was grown then, but she— JKNV: You were grown then.

RLL: Uh-huh [affirmative], but she— JKNV: With your children.

RLL: Right, but she never discussed that with me.

JKNV: Okay. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. So did Mary Lee Lightfoot catch babies here in the community?

RLL: Yes, she did.

JKNV: And in the family?

RLL: Not 00:08:00in the family.

JKNV: Not in the family.

RLL: Not in the family.

JKNV: Okay. About how many babies did she catch, overall?

RLL: I don’t know. Never asked her. But Lena Collins [sp?] was the midwife that attended me and my children.

JKNV: Okay. Lena?

RLL: Lena Collins. We call her Mother Lena Collins.

JKNV: Okay. So she caught all your babies?

RLL: She caught four of ’em.

JKNV: Okay. Well, what was the relationship like with Lena Collins, within the family and the community?

RLL: 00:09:00She was a loving lady. She was an old Indian-lookin’ lady, with grey hair at that time, and she was a loving person.

JKNV: Okay. She was a loving person.

RLL: Uh-huh [affirmative].

JKNV: This was Lena Collins.

RLL: Lena Collins.

JKNV: What made her loving? Can you give some examples?

RLL: She just took so much time with, you know, her patients.

JKNV: Okay. Did she spend the night with you?

RLL: If she had to.

JKNV: Okay. 00:10:00How about the children? Your children with her?

RLL: Well, the children didn’t have any reaction with her, because after this she was goin’ on, deliverin’ more babies.

JKNV: Okay.

RLL: And she was a settle-aged [ph] lady then, because all her hair was white when she delivered my first baby.

JKNV: Okay. Do you have a picture of her?

RLL: No, I don’t have a picture of her.

JKNV: Don’t have a picture, okay. Can you remember about how long she was a midwife, about how many years she was a midwife?

RLL: She had been a 00:11:00midwife since she was a young lady. I had really intended to go to the Health Department and get how long she did this, and I probably can still do it, but she was the known midwife here, and she delivered most of the babies, because at that time it was $25 to deliver a baby, and she delivered most of the babies. She was the, I said [ph], certified one.

JKNV: Okay. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Do you suppose you can still go to the Health Department and— RLL: I think I can.

JKNV: —seek that information?

RLL: I think I can.

JKNV: Okay. That would be nice, if you could do that, give them a call or somethin’.

RLL: I think I can, and if I can’t do it, I got a friend that worked there; I could get her 00:12:00to get it for me, I think.

JKNV: Look into it. Okay, thank you. And so we’ll be communicating about that.

RLL: Okay.

JKNV: And I think you said she caught babies beyond the family members, which made her well known.

RLL: Well known in the community.

JKNV: Okay.

RLL: There were other midwives, but everybody just about went to Mother Collins.

JKNV: Okay. You know about how many years she practiced midwifery?

RLL: No, I don’t. But I’ll try to get all that information.

JKNV: Okay, thank you so much. And it sounds like Mother Collins, I mean, to have that reputation of a name, was well thought 00:13:00of in the community.

RLL: She was. She was.

JKNV: Did she catch both Black and white babies?

RLL: She did.

JKNV: She did, okay. And I think you were saying there was a Black side and a white side.

RLL: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

JKNV: So how was she catching the white babies?

RLL: I really don’t know, but I know she did catch ’em.

JKNV: Okay, okay. Okay. Why did she catch babies outside of the medical clinics and/or hospitals?

RLL: It was cheaper then to do it at home.

JKNV: Okay. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Was she refused opportunities to catch babies in the medical clinics and/or hospitals?

RLL: I don’t know.

JKNV: 00:14:00Okay. Did racism interfere with the midwife catchin’ babies?

RLL: No.

JKNV: Did she talk about medical doctors or nurses who might’ve discriminated against her?

RLL: No, she’d only discuss that if you needed a—if she couldn’t deliver it, then she would have to have, you know, a doctor, if she couldn’t deliver it.

JKNV: Okay. Did the medical doctors prevent mothers from having children at hospitals?

RLL: No, because Dr. St. Hills, 00:15:00the child that he delivered, he begged me to let him deliver the baby, because I really preferred the midwife to the doctor. By me being so short, they would put me in the stirrups, and I didn’t like to be in the stirrups, so I preferred the midwife.

JKNV: Okay. So it was Dr. Sandhill— RLL: St. Hills.

JKNV: —who was putting you in the stirrups, with you being so short.

RLL: Yeah.

JKNV: Okay, all right. S-A-N-D-H-I-L-L?

RLL: St. Hills, S-T H-I-L-L-S.

JKNV: Okay, spell it again.

RLL: 00:16:00S-T H-I-L-L-S, I think is how— JKNV: Okay, S-T H-I-L-L-S.

RLL: Uh-huh [affirmative].

JKNV: Oh, okay. All right, thank you.

RLL: He was a doctor off the island.

JKNV: Okay, okay. Unique name I see here [ph].

RLL: Uh-huh [affirmative].

JKNV: Okay. What island? You don’t know? Some island.

RLL: Yeah, some island.

JKNV: Okay. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. I think you said the midwife had a certificate. Does she have a certificate?

RLL: No.

JKNV: Oh, she— RLL: Oh, you mean to be a midwife?

JKNV: A prac— Yes.

RLL: I’m sure she did.

JKNV: Okay. Was she certified by the County, Washington County?

RLL: I almost [ph] know she was.

JKNV: Okay.

RLL: 00:17:00But that’s the information that I’m gonna look up, and that would make it look good.

JKNV: Okay, all right. We appreciate it. How was the midwife compensated for catchin’ babies?

RLL: How?

JKNV: Yes, how was she compensated?

RLL: The family. I have to pay for that, which was $25 at that time.

JKNV: Okay. Per baby.

RLL: Per baby.

JKNV: Okay. Do you know if she received any other kind of compensation?

RLL: I don’t.

JKNV: Okay. Was she forced into retirement?

RLL: Seemly—I don’t know this, 00:18:00but seemly she was. Now, I don’t know whether it was her age—something came up with the midwives, but I don’t know exactly what it was, but in the later years something came up with the midwives, and they, you know, kinda bust up. It was three or four midwives here, and something came up. Now, I would have to get that, too.

JKNV: Okay, okay. Do you think it may have been contributing to the physicians and race?

RLL: I think— Well, see, in the later years, we got better jobs, and the physicians could get money from the insurance, and that’s why Dr. St. Hills delivered my baby, because he insisted that I let him 00:19:00deliver it, because he know that that time, the company would pay on the deliveries of the babies.

JKNV: Oh, okay. So it was an economic thing.

RLL: Right. And at that time, they had built a big hospital here, what in the beginning, when I first started havin’ babies, they only had a small hospital. But they had built Delta Medical Center here.

JKNV: Okay, which was the big hospital.

RLL: Was the big hospital. So they had, what, three, maybe four Black doctors, and the Black doctors catered to delivering the Black babies. Dr. St. Hills delivered one, and Dr. Susan [sp?] delivered one of my babies.

JKNV: Okay. And they were all Black?

RLL: They were Black.

JKNV: Okay. 00:20:00And you said they delivered how many of yours? Three?

RLL: Two, two.

JKNV: Two. Okay.

RLL: Four of ’em was delivered by a midwife, by Mother Lena.

JKNV: Okay. Oh, these are the ones who were not. Okay, yes, I have it now.

RLL: Right.

JKNV: Thank you. What were the family relations like with the midwife? You say they called her Mama—?

RLL: Lena.

JKNV: Yeah, Lena, Mother Lena?

RLL: Mother Lena. Mother Lena.

JKNV: So what were those relations like?

RLL: Well, we didn’t see her until we needed her, and in our late months she would start keepin’ in touch with us and visitin’ us in the later months of our pregnancy.

JKNV: Okay. And what were those visits like?

RLL: She would just come and see how we were doin’, and talk to us, 00:21:00and for six weeks after the baby were born she would always come every week and see how we were doin’.

JKNV: Okay. And so after that six-week period that she saw that things were well within the family, did she move on?

RLL: She’d move on.

JKNV: Okay, okay. Do you recall any contributions she made within the family and/or community beyond catching babies?

RLL: No.

JKNV: You don’t recall any.

RLL: Mm-mm [negative].

JKNV: How many babies did she catch in the family? You said four.

RLL: I just remember 00:22:00my four.

JKNV: Okay. Can you give me their names?

RLL: Sure. Mabel, Cathy— JKNV: Is that C-A-T-H-Y, or K?

RLL: Either one.

JKNV: Okay, Cathy.

RLL: Uh-huh [affirmative]. Leon.

JKNV: Leon?

RLL: Uh-huh [affirmative], and Cheryl.

JKNV: Cheryl?

RLL: C-H-E-R-Y-L.

JKNV: Y-L. Okay, very good. Do they live around here? Have they moved away, or—?

RLL: Leon’s dead. Cathy live here. That’s Laurence [sp?] out there.

JKNV: Okay, that’s Laurence.

RLL: Now, she didn’t deliver Laurence; Dr. Susan did. But yeah, Mabel works in Jackson for— At the White House.

JKNV: Okay. Okay. Very good. Did she have any assistance 00:23:00during the birthing process?

RLL: No.

JKNV: She did everything by herself.

RLL: She did everything by herself.

JKNV: Okay.

RLL: Including—I can’t understand it until today—excuse me— O’CEAN BREWER: Oh, you’re fine.

RLL: —she was set up and be wipin’ [ph], and I just couldn’t stand it. [Laughs.] That’s the only thing I hated about the home birthing. She would be eatin’ and, you know, takin’ care of you.

JKNV: Oh, okay, okay. You didn’t like that.

RLL: I didn’t like that. [Laughs.] That’s the only thing, but other than that— JKNV: You thought she was okay.

RLL: She was sweet.

JKNV: So she had to stay some time to start eating.

RLL: She was greedy. [Laughter.] She was greedy. 00:24:00JKNV: Do you have a story about a Black doctor in the community during the time period of the midwife? You said something about several Black doctors?

RLL: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

JKNV: Okay. Do you recall anything, or did anybody tell you anything, about them?

RLL: No.

JKNV: Okay. But you know they were present.

RLL: Yeah. But she was always able to deliver mine, so I didn’t have to.

JKNV: Okay. Did the midwife spend time with any children she caught?

RLL: 00:25:00Not as I know of.

JKNV: Okay. What about that six-week period when she— RLL: She would come back for the six weeks to make sure that everything was— And after the six weeks, we would have to go to the Health Department, and we were released from her then after we would go to the Health Department.

JKNV: Okay. In terms of the children being weened from her 00:26:00after the six-week period, did the children interact with her in any kinda way— RLL: No.

JKNV: —within those six weeks? Okay.

RLL: No. You mean after the six weeks?

JKNV: No, I mean within, because after the six weeks she was gone, you said.

RLL: Right, uh-huh [affirmative].

JKNV: So when she would come to check on you and the children, you and the babies, within that six-week time period that she was to come, do you remember seeing her interact with them, or was she only interacting with you?

RLL: She would pick the baby up, and, you know, check the baby, see if the baby were gainin’ weight or whatever was necessary for the baby.

JKNV: Okay. 00:27:00Can you provide names and contact information of children who interacted with the midwife? I guess these would be the children’s names you gave me. Would they be your children?

RLL: Yeah, they’re my children.

JKNV: Okay. [inaudible] that number here. Number 19. Did she talk about medical doctors or nurses who discriminated against her?

RLL: No, she didn’t.

JKNV: Okay. Did medical doctors prevent mothers 00:28:00from having children at the hospitals?

RLL: Not as I know of.

JKNV: Was a midwife the community doctor or leader?

RLL: I don’t know.

JKNV: Okay. Was she active in the community and/or the church?

RLL: I don’t know that, either.

JKNV: Okay. What stands out most in your mind about the midwife?

RLL: Her eatin’ and wipin’.

JKNV: Okay. [Laughter.] Were there other granny midwives? I think you did say that there were some other granny midwives.

RLL: Yeah, there was others.

JKNV: And what were their names?

RLL: Mm, I have to get 00:29:00their names.

JKNV: Beyond Lena Collins. You said Lena Collins was your midwife.

RLL: Uh-huh [affirmative].

JKNV: And I think you had two other names.

RLL: Mary Lightfoot and—that was my aunt, uh-huh [affirmative].

JKNV: Mary Lightfoot was your aunt.

RLL: Uh-huh [affirmative], and what was the other one? [inaudible]— I’ll send you those names. I don’t want to give you the wrong names.

JKNV: Okay. Okay, Mary Lightfoot. Well, were there other granny midwives serving in the community when Mother Lena Collins was serving?

RLL: Yes, uh-huh [affirmative].

JKNV: Okay, and what were their names?

RLL: What’s what I have to get.

JKNV: You will provide, okay, okay. 00:30:00Did males play a role during the birthing process?

RLL: Not with me, because I wasn’t married.

JKNV: Okay. With the midwife coming to you, did she get herself here by herself? Did someone drive her to you, where you were? How was that? Did she travel by a wagon? Did she travel by a horse? Did she come alone?

RLL: She would come alone. At that time, they walked most of the places that they went.

JKNV: Okay, okay.

RLL: And she lived on Sunflower Lane, and I were over near the lady on Poplar Street, so it wasn’t too far. 00:31:00JKNV: Okay. How were Blacks connected to cotton within the community? Cotton played, in this area, as you know, an important role throughout the country and the world.

RLL: We would pick cotton for so much a hundred [ph].

JKNV: Okay. Tell me about that.

RLL: When we start pickin’ cotton in September, and through October we would go to the field and pick cotton.

JKNV: You 00:32:00started picking it in September?

RLL: September.

JKNV: And then—?

RLL: Through October.

JKNV: Okay.

RLL: September, October. Yeah, the last of October. When it get cold, we would be just about finished pickin’, but we didn’t have the machines that picked it then. We would do it.

JKNV: Okay. Okay, so after October, what happened?

RLL: We didn’t pick anymore, because it got cold.

JKNV: Okay. Okay.

RLL: And really, that was the mean of most of our income was choppin’ and pickin’ cotton, especially here in the Delta.

JKNV: Did you encounter hardship at any time with that?

RLL: It was a hardship, because it wasn’t too much money 00:33:00involved in it. And with all the babies I had, you know it wasn’t no easy goin’ then.

JKNV: Was there, where you were, a sharecropping situation going on?

RLL: No. They had trucks. People would haul people to the field, and they would get so much, you know, for everybody that they carried.

JKNV: Well, who mostly benefited?

RLL: A person 00:34:00that owned the field mostly benefited, and the next person that benefited good was the person that had the truck. And, see, 20 or 25 of us was on the back of that truck that he would take to the field.

JKNV: Twenty or 25?

RLL: Or maybe more.

JKNV: Okay. Was that a Black person or a white person?

RLL: That was a Black person.

JKNV: The one who had the truck.

RLL: Right.

JKNV: Okay. So these 20 or 25 persons did he take at one time to and fro?

RLL: Yeah, uh-huh [affirmative].

JKNV: Okay. 00:35:00RLL: And he would have to stay there all day and help see to the weigh-up [ph], keep your weight [ph], and so in the evenin’ time they could pay you off.

JKNV: Okay. So how often did you go to the field?

RLL: Sometime I would go five days a week, until I got other income.

JKNV: Was it difficult to work in the fields?

RLL: Well, I had did that all my life, 00:36:00because from six years old on I can remember bein’ in the field.

JKNV: Okay. From six years?

RLL: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

JKNV: What were you doin’ when you were six, between six and ten?

RLL: Water girl. Water girl. [Laughs.] JKNV: Okay. You were a water girl at age six.

RLL: Uh-huh [affirmative], right.

JKNV: And how long were you a water girl?

RLL: Probably about three years, until I, you know, got big enough to chop the cotton or pick the cotton.

JKNV: Around ten?

RLL: Uh-huh [affirmative].

JKNV: And how long did you do that? From ten on to what years?

RLL: Well, I picked cotton after I got here, in the Delta, which was in the ’50s, but 00:37:00from a child, from six years on until I left the Hills, which I was 17 or maybe 18 when I came to the Delta— JKNV: When you left, when you— Okay. You were 17 or 18 when you stopped picking cotton?

RLL: No, unh-uh [negative]. I picked cotton after I was 17 or 18. I picked cotton after I came here.

JKNV: Okay. So you picked cotton from ages 17 to—?

RLL: I said 22 or 23, ’cause I started working in factories after that.

JKNV: Okay. Okay. 00:38:00So you said earlier that the owner of the land, the cotton field itself, benefited the most.

RLL: Was the person that owned it, which was the white man.

JKNV: Okay, so— RLL: And especially in the Delta.

JKNV: Okay, so how did he benefit?

RLL: Well, he— JKNV: How, really, did he benefit?

RLL: This was his land, and this was his field, so he had hired this man to bring labor to his field, and he benefits from us, you know, gathering his harvest and his crops, choppin’ his cotton or whatever it was that he had planted.

JKNV: What did he do with the cotton? Do you know?

RLL: 00:39:00Yeah. They would send it to the gin, and they would bale it up and send it to make material and stuff out of it, to factories.

JKNV: So with that type of production, based on your labor and the other cotton pickers’ labor, then he went where with it? From the factories to where? Did he go from Mississippi? Did he cover Mississippi, or the Delta, 00:40:00or did he move from the Delta throughout Mississippi with the cotton productivity? Did he go around the country? What happened after all of that with the cotton?

RLL: I don’t know. I know they would send it off, and, you know, the material and stuff was made from it.

JKNV: Okay. Material was made from it— RLL: From the cotton.

JKNV: Okay, all right. I have that in here. Okay. Well, we have come to my final question, I believe, about the artifacts for you to donate. You have donated a certificate— RLL: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

JKNV: —bearing the granny midwife’s name, and we really do appreciate that. Are there any other items that you might be able to donate to the center, like the bedpans or the clothing 00:41:00that maybe Mother had on, the midwife, or her cap, or her black bag that she kept her utensils and things in, herbs? Did she have herbs? Did she use herbs? [Camera falls] JKNV: Oh my goodness.

OB: I’m sorry. It still works.

JKNV: It’s still workin’? Okay.

OB: Yes, ma’am. I caught it a little bit. [Laughs.] JKNV: Oh. Well, good. I’m glad you caught it. Do you have any other items?

RLL: No, no.

JKNV: Pictures? You say you don’t have a picture of her.

RLL: No.

JKNV: No picture of her.

RLL: No. My house burned down durin’ the ice storm.

JKNV: Oh, okay, okay, okay. That was very unfortunate.

RLL: It was.

JKNV: Do you have any questions you would like to ask me 00:42:00before we close out and take a nice photo together?

RLL: No, I don’t think so.

JKNV: You don’t think so?

RLL: Mm-mm [negative].

JKNV: Well, Scott Ford House, Inc., W.K. Kellogg team, and I are just so grateful that you have invited us here to your lovely home, and you have welcomed us, and you have pointed out that for some of the items, the very few items that you do not have enough information about, you will seek through the Health Department.

RLL: Right.

JKNV: And we really do thank you for that opportunity, plus, remember, I said that once I transcribed this interview, by tomorrow, then I shall send you a copy.

RLL: Okay.

JKNV: Then you will look at the copy and see if there’s anything within 00:43:00the information provided that you would like to delete or add. And so, more than likely, next week at some point, I’m surmising that you would have communicated some kind of way through your friend you spoke about, or yourself, with the Health Department, and we can move forward from there— RLL: Okay.

JKNV: —with that information that you would provide, if any.

RLL: Okay.

JKNV: Okay?

RLL: All right.

JKNV: And I thank you so much. This is really nice, Mrs. Lloyd.

RLL: Thank you.

JKNV: This is a very good interview.

RLL: Thank you.

JKNV: Have you cut us off? [END OF INTERVIEW]