Zell Long

DR. JANICE K. NEAL-VINCENT: So you’re saying maybe he was protecting.

ZELL LONG: I feel that he was, since— When we look back at, I do. It was funny, I was laughing with my sister, who died recently: when we’d go and play, because the white friend, she’d call our mother just Gilly [sp?], Gilly this, Gilly— And, of course, we had to say “Miss,” whatever her mom’s name was. And one day we’re laughin’. I said, “You gonna say Miss Gilly, instead of just Gilly,” and she did, [laughter] so— We knew the difference, but we had that kind of relationship where we felt like, hey, if we gotta say Miss Sharon to your mother, you gotta say Miss Gilly to us, so— JKNV: That’s interesting.

ZL: [Laughs.] Yeah.

JKNV: Well, what was the granny midwife’s name who caught the babies?

ZL: I’m 00:01:00not familiar with her. I mean, that would be my mother, to me, because she’s the one that went.

JKNV: Your mother was a granny midwife?

ZL: My mother was the midwife.

JKNV: Okay, well, what was her name? That’s what goes here. She was a granny midwife?

ZL: That was Gilly. Yeah, Gilly Jones.

JKNV: Oh, Gilly Jones. You’ve already told me, Gilly Jones. Okay. And she was your mother. Well, did Ms. Jones catch babies beyond the family?

ZL: Oh, definitely, that’s what I’m saying. The people that came, they were just people that she knew in the neighborhood. I don’t know what distance she went to deliver, but she was the only one around that we are aware of that was delivering babies at that time.

JKNV: Did she catch Black and white babies?

ZL: Just mostly Black. I’m not aware of any white babies.

Well, 00:02:00why did she catch babies outside of the medical clinics and the hospitals?

ZL: Within the community, yes. There were doctors in the nearby town, but based on just the number of people that came to get her, it made you feel that that’s who they were using. It was funny: when she died, my brother was sitting next to me. He told us, he said, “We ought to stand at that back door and get money from every person leavin’ out of here 00:03:00that didn’t pay Mother,” so— [Laughs.] You know, because she did it, and I don’t know what her fee was, but they would give her goods, groceries, you know, vegetables, those kind of things, in lieu of payment, and she never complained. That was somethin’ she never complained about to us as children.

JKNV: Okay.

ZL: And I really don’t know how many years she did this. I’m the youngest. My mom and dad, they had 18 children that were born. There were 15 of us that lived to be grown, and I’m the youngest, so I don’t know how long she had been doing it. All we knew is that that little bag that she carried, that was— JKNV: Do you have that bag?

ZL: I do not. [Laughs.] JKNV: Oh, 00:04:00 okay.

ZL: I wish I did.

JKNV: What color was it?

ZL: Brown.

JKNV: It was brown, okay.

ZL: It was a little brown bag.

JKNV: So she had a— I mostly hear people say a little black bag.

ZL: No, hers was brown.

JKNV: She had a brown one, okay.

ZL: And it was one of mystery to us as kids. What was in that bag, that she had to carry it with her?

JKNV: But she carried it every time.

ZL: Every time. She didn’t leave home without that bag. [Laughter.] And one time my sister and I, we did look in it and saw this pad with newspapers, and since I’m grown I know that she probably put that under the mother. There were a pair of scales. There was a book that had, like, the birth certificates. So I think that was it. That was her business.

JKNV: Everything in that bag.

JKNV: Do you recall her having any herbs in the bag?

ZL: No.

JKNV: Scissors, 00:05:00things like that?

ZL: Oh, yeah, scissors. Scissors, mm-hmm [affirmative].

JKNV: Okay. Even the birth certificates?

JKNV: To be completed?

ZL: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

JKNV: Okay. Was she refused opportunities, to your knowledge, to catch babies within the medical clinics and hospitals?

ZL: I don’t know if she ever tried to work in that particular area. Now, I know when I got married and I went home, I was pregnant and went into labor there, but she told me, she said, “I can’t deliver your baby. You’re going to have to go to the doctor.” And, of course, I went to the hospital there, so I don’t know if she had lost her license, didn’t renew her license, but she did tell me, she said, “I can’t deliver your baby,” and I didn’t want her to deliver my baby, [laughter] so— JKNV: Okay.

That wouldn’t have been appealing.

ZL: 00:06:00Oh, gosh.

JKNV: Well, did racism interfere with her catching babies? I know you said that she caught the babies within the Black community.

ZL: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

JKNV: You’re aware of that. Do you know anything about whether or not racism interfered with her catching the babies?

ZL: I do not, but I would not think it would. She was well respected and known in the community, and I think the relationship that we had with the white family that lived next door to us probably provided her opportunities, if she was needed by the white community, or if she needed to go somewhere. I don’t think that there was anything that would have prevented her from goin’, racially so.

JKNV: Okay. Did she talk about medical doctors and nurses who discriminated against her?

ZL: No. She had a very good relationship 00:07:00with the local doctor there in—well, it was in Hernando. They knew her and respected her.

JKNV: Okay. And these were whites?

ZL: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Dr. Wadsworth and his grandson, or great-grandson, is practicin’ there now, so it’s been a generational— JKNV: Okay. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Is Dr. Wadsworth living now?

ZL: He’s not, but I think his— JKNV: But the great-grandson— ZL: —grandson or great-grandson’s practicing still in Hernando, mm-hmm [affirmative].

JKNV: Okay. Did the medical doctors prevent mothers from having children at the hospitals?

ZL: I’m not aware of that.

JKNV: Okay.

ZL: There was not a hospital there in Nesbit, Hernando. 00:08:00You had to go to Memphis for any hospital services at that time.

JKNV: Did the granny midwife have a certificate?

ZL: I’m sure she did, ’cause she would not have done anything that was illegal. [Laughs.] And everybody knew she was the one to come and get, so that’s why I feel like she did not try to deliver my child: because she may have had a license that had expired, and she hadn’t renewed them, or something like that.

JKNV: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm [affirmative]. Well, that sounds logical— ZL: Yeah.

JKNV: —in terms of expiration.

JKNV: Well, 00:09:00you said she was compensated in some kind of way. What were those things? I think you mentioned casually the barter system.

ZL: Right. [Laughs.] JKNV: So what were some of those conversations?

ZL: We remember seeing, like, sweet potatoes, or corn, based on things from a garden or something like that. She would come on with peas, [laughs] like, what— JKNV: Okay.

ZL: Yeah.

JKNV: Did she believe this was her calling?

ZL: I think she did. All of us respected, and because she never complained, she never complained about not getting paid or anything like that, and she was always willing to go, no matter if it was nighttime, she got up and went, and none of us ever heard her complain about going.

JKNV: Did the household, your household, suffer as a result of her going and 00:10:00spending time with the mothers?

ZL: No. There were children grown enough to take care of the young one, like me—I was the youngest—and our dad was still there at the house, so there was oversight by a grown person still.

JKNV: Do you know whether or not your mother was forced into retirement?.

ZL: I don’t know that.

JKNV: Okay. Well, what were the family relations like?

ZL: As far as the community-wide?

JKNV: Within the family, your mother.

ZL: Our family?

JKNV: Right, what were those relations like?

ZL: Oh, gosh. [Laughs.] JKNV: In other words, we know that she was a Mississippi granny midwife, 00:11:00but how did she, beyond catching the babies, work within her own family? How did you feel about her— ZL: Oh, gosh.

JKNV: —as children? How did the husband feel about her? What were those family relations like? Can you talk about some of them? Did she cook well? What was she really like?

ZL: [Laughs.] We, the daughters, we say if we could be half the woman that she was. All of us talk about her wisdom, talk about how we don’t know what she did for all of us, the siblings, to have love among ourselves like we do. And that’s something that we’re still doin’ now. Every Saturday right now, we have a family prayer call, and I’m here in Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Texas, Colorado, 00:12:00Louisiana, siblings and nieces and nephews, great-nieces on this call, and it’s because of the love, we think, that our parents taught us, to always be there for each other, that we’re doing this. But she would give people, folks there the shirt off her back, and we would see people come to the house, and whatever, if they were hungry, it was always something that she, you know, did. And she was our role model, I guess. She really was.

JKNV: I bet she’d do well now during this pandemic. [Laughter.] Especially for the homeless.

ZL: Yeah. Yeah.

JKNV: Based on what you’re saying, it sounds like— ZL: We need people like her during this pandemic.

JKNV: 00:13:00Great. Do you recall any contributions—? Well, these are contributions within the family. What about contributions within the community, contributions outside? You did talk about the homeless and what have you. Were there other contributions, such as her being a church member, and what she did within the church with others? Can you talk about that?

ZL: She was a woman who loved the Lord, and she taught us—she took us to church and stayed. [Laughs.] She didn’t drop us off. She was the church secretary for over 30-something years, and they would have a Women’s Day program, or some other fundraising program, and she would always raise the most amount. And it is so funny because I saw her, when she’d go to Hernando Saturdays, and collect donations from people, and they would give her 00:14:00a nickel and she’d take it. And I said, “I will never ask people for money. Never. I would never.” [Laughter.] And, of course, now I’m in nonprofit and that’s what you do. So we saw her doin’ whatever she could to fulfill the mission of the church, bein’ there in the services, teaching us love, teaching us about the Lord, all of those things, but she was also a friend to people that needed somebody to talk to, ’cause, like I said, I think she taught me how to be loyal, to have integrity, because seein’ people come and talk to her, you never heard it repeated in the house among the children or anything. So she was our role model, definitely.

JKNV: Oh, she was well-rounded.

ZL: She was well-rounded.

JKNV: She 00:15:00was the ideal person.

ZL: I think—to me, she was, definitely. Definitely.

JKNV: Sounds like it. And I see how your face is lighting up when you talk about it, [laughter] goin’ back in the day, thinking about it.

ZL: Oh, gosh.

JKNV: That’s wonderful, really wonderful.

ZL: She was special. She really was.

JKNV: Well, do you know approximately how many babies she caught in the family?

ZL: I do not, but, like I said, it had to have been hundreds, depending on how long she had done it, everything.

JKNV: Okay. And how many years did she practice?

ZL: See, I don’t know that, ’cause that’s what I was saying [ph]: I don’t know when she started.

JKNV: Okay, don’t know when she started.

ZL: Don’t know when she started, but I do know this was in 1971. She died in ’72, ’cause she died the year my son—the year after he was born, his birthday. So she died in ’72. But that particular year, 00:16:00everything, she didn’t deliver mine in ’71, so she stopped sometime prior to ’71. Of course, I got married and moved away from the house, also.

JKNV: Okay, okay. Did she have any assistance during the birthing process?

ZL: Not that went with her from our household, was not, and have not heard anyone ever say that she and so-and-so went; it was always just her.

JKNV: Well, do you have a story about a Black doctor in the community?

ZL: We did not have one when I grew up.

JKNV: Did not have one, okay. Did she spend time—? Well, obviously, based on what you said here, she spent much time with the children— ZL: Yep.

JKNV: —in your family— ZL: Yes.

JKNV: —who she caught. She did do that, and you’ve already talked about some of the things that took place there. 00:17:00How did you, as children, though, interact with her?

ZL: [Laughs.] It’s interesting because I’m the youngest, and her name for me, of course, was Baby; that’s what she called me all my life that I can remember. So she always wanted me to be there at home, and I felt like she wouldn’t let me do anything or go anywhere, and I just felt like she was just too hard on me. And then my sister, who was two and a half years older than I was, they had a great relationship, and they would be laughing and talking as we got older. And, to me, she had privileges that I should’ve had, also. So each one of us had different relationships with her. I think my oldest sister right now, she’s 90, and we were talking on a call, and, you know, things that we did, and she said, 00:18:00“I really didn’t want any children, because every time Mother would leave to go deliver a baby I had to babysit all the rest of you all,” so— [Laughter.] But one of my fondest memories growing up—’cause all of the other siblings had gone and gotten married or whatever, but they always came back on Sunday. And our parents would go shopping on Saturday to fix dinner on Sunday for them to come, and they’d all come down with their children. She’d have enough cooked to feed I don’t know how many of us. You know, I never thought about totaling the numbers or whatever. [Laughs.] And she did that for years, and finally they said, “Okay, let’s start bringin’ somethin’ to help out.” So it was that joy that she had of family coming back home, 00:19:00even though she still had children home.

JKNV: That was on Sundays.

ZL: Mm-hmm [affirmative], on Sundays. And they would get together every Thanksgiving to help Dad kill hogs and pull corn. That was the family tradition. So sons would come and go in the field, and just great memories, yeah.

JKNV: Okay. So you can remember many family dinners.

ZL: Oh, yeah. [Laughs.] JKNV: Okay, and conversations.

ZL: Yeah.

JKNV: Okay. Well, can you provide names and contact information of the children who interacted with her? Like your siblings, their names?

ZL: Oh. Of course I know all my siblings’ name. [Laughs.] JKNV: Okay, I wanted to write their name down on this paper. [Laughter.] ZL: You got enough space? All right.

JKNV: I have enough space.

ZL: Well, I’ll just start with the oldest and go down. Marsie Ree, M-A-R-S-I-E R-E-E, 00:20:00is the oldest daughter; she was named after our dad, Marsie.

JKNV: Wait, M-A-R-S?

ZL: S-I-E R-E-E.

JKNV: I-E. Okay. R-E?

ZL: Two E’s.

JKNV: Two E’s, okay.

ZL: William.

JKNV: William? Is this another child?

ZL: There were 15 of us.

JKNV: Marsie Ree Williams?

ZL: No.

JKNV: Oh, William.

ZL: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

JKNV: Okay.

ZL: Frances, F-R-A-N-C-E-S. Lena, L-E-N-A. Henry.

JKNV: Henry.

ZL: Tecumseth.

JKNV: Spell that.

ZL: T-E-C-U-M-S-E-T-H.

JKNV: Mm, never heard that before.

ZL: Ah, Indian name. Hugh, H-U-G-H. Bernard.

JKNV: Bernard?

ZL: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Castella, C-A-S-T-E-L-L-A. Mary.

JKNV: Mary. 00:21:00ZL: Robbie, R-O-B-B-I-E. Edwin.

JKNV: E-D-M-O-N-D?

ZL: No, E-D-W-I-N.

JKNV: Oh, Edwin? Okay.

ZL: Doreen. We called her Claudette. I don’t know, we— Alcola, A-L-C-O-L-A. That should be 14 children. Is that 14? [inaudible] somebody.

JKNV: One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11— Yes, 14. Fourteen.

ZL: And me. [Laughs.] JKNV: Wonderful. You did well.

ZL: Of course, they’re my siblings. [Laughter.] JKNV: Well, did she talk about the medical doctors or nurses who may have discriminated against her?

ZL: No.

JKNV: Okay, don’t recall any of that?

ZL: No. But not only did she have a great relationship with her children, but her grandchildren. They loved— JKNV: They loved her.

ZL: —comin’ to Big Mama’s house. It would be funny to 00:22:00listen to my older sisters. “I just don’t understand: they ate before they left home. They get there and act like they starvin’ for a biscuit.” And that’s [laughs] [inaudible].

JKNV: The grands. That’s true, I can relate. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Did the medical doctors prevent the mothers from having children at the hospitals?

ZL: I don’t know that answer. I’m sorry.

JKNV: Was the midwife the community doctor or leader?

ZL: I won’t say she was a doctor, but she was definitely a leader. People respected her. People would—'cause they would go to Hernando on Saturdays, and that’s where they would have conversations about different things, and everybody knew our parents, it seemed, growing up and going to school. They all knew Ms. Gilly, 00:23:00the white and the Black. So as far as any hindrances to deliveries at the hospital or whatever, I’m not sure that she was licensed to deliver in a hospital setting.

JKNV: Okay. But they were well—she and your father were well respected.

ZL: Oh, yeah, definitely.

JKNV: Okay, okay. Well, you’ve already said that she was active in the community. What were some of the things that you can recall that she did in the church?

ZL: Oh, gosh. She was the church secretary. She basically was, as I said, the top fundraiser, when it come to raising funds for different programs. She often served as the mistress of ceremonies for programs that they had. She loved to sing. She would do devotion. 00:24:00She didn’t have the voice; Dad had the voice. [Laughter.] But she loved to sing. And that’s another memory is her singing while she worked at home.

JKNV: Okay. But Dad had the voice.

ZL: He had the voice, yes. that’s a gift that we got from him.

JKNV: What was his voice like?

ZL: He was a bass, the purest bass.

JKNV: He was bass, okay, he was bass.

ZL: Oh, he was the purest bass I’ve ever heard.

JKNV: Like the “Silent Night” man, you would think [ph]. [Laughs.] ZL: Oh, yeah, yeah. He could get every note [inaudible] and sound better than Otis. [Laughs.] JKNV: Don’t you hear that man sing “Silent Night”? Yes, yes. Well, what stands out most in your mind about your mother as a midwife?

ZL: I think the fact that she did it without complaining. I don’t know the work that was involved in it, but just, you know, lookin’ at things from TV, knowin’ that she had to be able to guide the mother as far as breathing and pushing 00:25:00and all those things, and we never heard her complain about “I’m so tired,” or— JKNV: Never heard her complain.

ZL: —“This was so bad,” or any of that. Mm-mm [negative].

JKNV: Never heard her complain.

ZL: Nope.

JKNV: That is wonderful.

ZL: Nope, never did.

JKNV: Wonderful. Were there other granny midwives within the family?

ZL: No.

JKNV: Okay. What about within the community?

JKNV: Okay. Mm.

JKNV: They had seen so much. Well, that’s understandable. [Laughter.] Did the males play a role during the birthing process?

ZL: I don’t know what went on in the homes. As far as our dad, he was always there for us when she was gone. He was there. So that’s the part of the male that I’m aware of.

JKNV: Okay. He was always home with you.

ZL: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

JKNV: 00:26:00Okay. Did she deliver any babies at home?

ZL: I have two sisters that she delivered babies, so I’ve got two niece that were delivered by her.

JKNV: They were delivered in her home?

ZL: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

JKNV: Okay. Well, how were the Blacks connected to cotton during that time? Were there any complications? And, if so, what were they? What were they? There were some folks who lived, for instance, within a sharecropping situation, and they encountered things where they picked the cotton, then they had to get the cotton to the gin, and they didn’t make much money. 00:27:00They were forever in debt within that type of system. What was cotton like during the time that you were coming up?

ZL: We were farmers. My dad worked a public [ph] job, they said, before I was born, but he eventually became a farmer. We owned some acres of land, but he did sharecrop. And for those bales of cotton or whatever—of course, the conversation that we heard growing up that he was never really paid the amount—I mean, and this is history; we know that’s history, that he never got the full amount. As far as being in debt to it, I’m not sure if he ever cleared the tab on it, but it was not— I guess he didn’t have any other choice, you know, to provide for the family, so he kept doing it. 00:28:00Kept doing it, yeah. So we knew that when we went to work so many acres on this particular site, that it was not our own, that Dad got a portion of it, but we did all the work, and— But that was still another area where he was well respected by the white owners. So we feel like he may not have gotten everything, but I think he fared better than some of the other Blacks that sharecropped.

JKNV: So he was able to support his family.

ZL: Yes. But we had the gardens and all of the other things that people did.

JKNV: Did. Okay, all right. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Do you have anything that you might want to add to this interview regarding your Mississippi granny midwife?

ZL: 00:29:00I wish I had known then [laughs] what I know now about the history of it, and how it was, I guess, a profession that just wasn’t everybody could pop up and do it. I’ve got some nieces that are upset because we didn’t preserve her bag of whatever, and, you know, they’re saying that this is history, because we never knew her, but this was something that she did, and havin’ the information, handwritten notes and all of those things. And I told ’em, I said, “We grew up with that. That was just stuff to us.” [Laughs.] So, to us, it had no— JKNV: It was stuff.

ZL: Right. And so I do regret not keeping that, and knowing the significance of it, because it was somethin’ that she did. We were very familiar with it, so we didn’t, 00:30:00I guess, protect it like we should have as part of her history.

JKNV: Okay. Well, we do have an essay contest that we want you to get the children involved in telling the story, you telling the story of these contributions that you have shared here about your mother being a Mississippi granny midwife within the region where you were growing up. We have an essay contest, and we want the children to be able to share the story.

ZL: Are you talking about my siblings, or who? What—when you say— JKNV: No, we’re talking about the children with your family now.

ZL: Okay.

JKNV: The children within your family now. Your contest season may occur next year, but it’s going to be coming within this three-year project, and so 00:31:00I just want you to be aware of that, and you have plenty time to think about what I’m talking about, in terms of being a great storyteller. So we are so happy that you have come today, Ms. Zell Long, to share— ZL: Ah, you’re welcome.

JKNV: —in this interview, Scott Ford House, Inc. and W.K. Kellogg team, for this significance regarding the Mississippi granny midwife, and we are hoping that you will be able to, from this interview, share with others all of this significant knowledge that you have brought forth for long-range goals for our project, in terms of a museum, aspirations for people who will come there to the Jackson area and be part of the two Mississippi houses that are there 00:32:00on Cohea Street, all the way back from Virginia Scott Ford, who was a great midwife, and the only one within her area, all of the people came. And she had no help at all. She did it all by herself.

ZL: Yep.

JKNV: So we appreciate you, again, Ms. Zell Long. I am Dr. Janice K. Neal-Vincent, oral historian, Scott Ford House, Inc., W.K. Kellogg team. Thank you.

ZL: You’re welcome. [Laughs.] JKNV: And we have stopped— [END OF INTERVIEW]