James Roberts

JANICE K. NEAL-VINCENT: Good evening. I’m Dr. Janice K. Neal-Vincent, oral historian of Scott Ford House Incorporated and W. K. Kellogg [Foundation] team. It is September 16, 2021. We are here at Farish Street Baptist Church in Jackson, Mississippi. Mr. James Roberts is the person I am about to interview regarding his knowledge of Mississippi granny midwives. Mr. James Roberts, interviewee. Mr. Roberts, what was the time period when you knew of a Mississippi granny midwife who worked with you and/or 00:01:00your relatives, and specifically, with whom did she work?

JAMES ROBERTS: Bein’ a product as a child born in the ’50s, I was first introduced to the word midwife around the age of five years old, which piqued my interest, because I never knew what a midwife was. And it was explained to me that this is the one who helped bring life into the world, the way it was explained to me. My bein’ curious, I wanted to know, what do you mean, bring life into the world? They explained to me that these are the people or the personnels who deliver babies.

My being the product of a midwife made me be inquisitive. 00:02:00I wanted to know when I was born, where was I born, and the time that I was born. There’s a lotta laughter and humor behind it. My parent told me that I was born in Holmes County, which is the poorest county in the state of Mississippi. Also, you can consider it one of the poorest county in the world. But being born in Pickens, Mississippi, at 62 Nelson Street, where I still reside. And my question was what time was I born, and the time was 9:30 at night. The experience from the personnels who hoped to make sure that I had a adequate entry into the world was a lady named Miss Dump.

JNV: Miss Dump?

JR: Miss Dump. As you say stump, Dump, 00:03:00whom we never—I never knew her last name. But however, she was a pivotal part of my life up until, I’d say, about around the age of 13, when she met her demise. Also, there was another elderly lady named Miss Josephine Kirby.

JNV: Josephine?

JR: Yes, Miss Josephine Kirby.

JNV: C-U-R?

JR: K-I-R-B-Y. Whom my mother would carry fishin’ all the time. And she said while she was pregnant with me, she and Miss Josephine would always go fishin’. And the humorous thing was she said she was in rare back [ph] pregnant, as some people referred to it. And say they had gone fishin’ on what we call the spillway down by 00:04:00Gas Plant Road. She said she and Miss Jo had gone up this long incline, and she didn’t know that Miss Jo had had a little spring water. She said they were just fishin’ and fishin’, and suddenly, they got ready to go, and Miss Jo began to slide. And so she caught Miss Jo, and Miss Jo laughed, and she said, “Come on, let us go so we can return home.” And so Miss Jo said, “I got to catch some fishes for the baby.” During that time, no one knew what the gender of the child would’ve been.

So around December the 18th, about 7:30 or eight o’clock at night, I was told that my mother was going into labor, and Miss Dump was over at Aunt Minnie’s [sp?]. And they 00:05:00told Miss Dump to go—they would not say go and get—go and fetch the midwife. Miss Dump, along with Miss Josephine Kirby, had gone and gotten the midwife, from my understanding, the one who delivered me, whose name was Miss Angie Ward [sp?]. She was a short, stocky-built lady, really nice. I had a chance to known her until her demise, which, if I’m not mistaken, was in latter ’70s. And I was told that I was brought into the world at 9:30 p.m., December the 18th.

Once they had delivered me, 00:06:00I didn’t respond, because we were told that the midwife would take the baby after they had gotten the umbilical cord, which they would take, some people would say, a cloth or white rag and place it around your stomach, or as they would call it, they would do it for a belly band, in order to shape your navel area. Afterwards, when I was conceived [read: born], they would also say that you’d spank the baby to make them respond by crying. I was told that I didn’t respond at the given moment. So Miss Angie gave me to my mother. There was no response. So they passed me around several times to several other people. There was no response. 00:07:00And finally, someone whom I cherished, which was my great-great-great aunt Minnie Ann Clerk Simpson [sp?], and I was told that when I was given to her, she tried to get a response outta me, and the response she’d gotten was one with pure joy and humor, which was, after she held me, they said she said a few words to me, and the next thing, that I had defecated over her. And she gave me this nickname, which if you would ever come to where I live, if you would ask for James Roberts, people would be startled and ask, Who are you talkin’ about? But if you say Jack, they say, Oh, yeah, we know Jack Roberts. 00:08:00But makin’ a long story short, my pet name was Jack, and I don’t believe in a lotta profanity, but my nickname is Jack Aspercreme. So you all can kinda fill in the blanks. From that day to this one, we all laughed about it.

And I was also told a little joke about Miss Angie, who was the midwife. They said whenever Miss Angie would go to deliver babies, she would always be expectin’ a meal. She would take the meal, enjoy the meal, and tell the mothers, Just push. Just push, and you’re gonna be all right. Just push. They said once she’d finish eating, finally she had gone to one home, and [laughs] the lady was about to conceive, and so she told Miss Angie, “I’m not cooking, and I don’t want 00:09:00you to tell me to push. If you can’t deliver this baby, you can go on and send me someone who can.” And thus began Miss Angie’s serious midwife work, where they said she began [laughter] to actually have physical contact and deal with tryin’ to bring children into the world.

JNV: Okay. That was just really very, very interesting. I can imagine what was going on by the way you explained everything. I could visualize what was happening, and you were just a newborn. [Laughs] And you said that the community in which you were birthed is Holmes County, in the poorest county in Mississippi, and one of the poorest counties— JR: —in the United States of America.

JNV: —in the United States. That’s just really very interesting. Well, what was 00:10:00that county like during that time period? What were the racial relations like?

JR: It was basically like separate, and it was where all of the African Americans, or Black, whichever term we would like to refer to ourselves as, lived. And as you know, we were always across the tracks. And across the track, in the area where I live, there were staunch, prolific African American individuals. Basically, the majority of them had their own little businesses. And, in a sense, I can say I grew up on what they call the low end.

JNV: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. What does that mean? 00:11:00JR: The low end is, like, they were sayin’ that this is the lower part of Pickens, because it’s not a hill. And where the majority of our people live, it’s kinda, like, up on a hill. But we were the ones who always had our own homes, along with our own businesses. And the majority of the personnels would always come on the low end, which I call the end somewhat, back in the day, as you would think about Farish Street. It was flourishing, and there were knowledgeable people.

JNV: The lower end.

JR: The lower end was. And further around, there were cotton fields. And this brings me to a granny—or a midwife granny whom I know, who’s a relative of mine, 00:12:00and I’m going to get more information about her, which she was a beautiful spirit. Her name was Emma Mayberry [sp?].

JNV: She was your relative?

JR: She was a third cousin of mine. And she was a midwife, whom delivered many children. All of them had great respect for her. She kept in touch with them, and she knew all the children that she had helped be born by their names, their family history, and basically who they were. And not only was she their midwife, she ended up with a lot of them being their babysitter. And there was a story, and I’m not sure who it was, 00:13:00that they were in the cotton fields, pickin’ cotton, and one lady was pregnated. And she had gone into labor, and her child was conceived—rather, was born in the cotton field, on a cotton sack. And I was told that they wrapped the child after gettin’ it clean in what we call a crocus sack. And for people who don’t know what a crocus sack is, it’s kinda like a nylon sack. It’s brown, thick, and heavy. And after they’d given birth to the child, they still got the cotton sack, weighed the cotton, and the mother had picked 300 pounds of cotton. 00:14:00JNV: So are you saying that the baby was born on the cotton sack?

JR: On the cotton sack, where that was the only place that they could actually give birth, because they were in the cotton field, and all the other personnels around would go and try and do what they could. And they had to find water. And I don’t know how far they were in the field, but they said people had to run to get water in order to have the child clean. But the child was healthy. There are other stories that they said most babies that were born with midwives are more healthier than some of the ones that were delivered in the hospital.

JNV: Okay. Well, that really had to be a moment for everybody, 00:15:00not only the mother giving birth, the midwife catching the baby, but also I could imagine a lot of chaos or activity was going around in terms of trying to assist the midwife, the mother, and the baby.

JR: I’m sure it was. I’m thinkin’ it was chaos.

JNV: Yes, that’s what it sounds like.

JR: Especially with the men that were in the field, and you know how we are. We’re the brave ones, but we’re the first to panic.

JNV: [Laughs.] JR: So I—as you can imagine, we would say that there was a whole lotta whoopin’ and a hollerin’.

JNV: Yes, yes. Lots of excitement.

JR: Someone was saying, “Go fetch the water. Go fetch this. Go fetch that. The baby’s on the way.” JNV: Right. Did anybody tell you how long it took for a baby to come in the midst of the chaos?

JR: Well, I’ve heard some stories where some mothers would go into labor 00:16:00around 12 p.m., or 12 noon, and it would be late, late, sometimes later that evening or early the next morning before they would give birth. And I was told that all the midwife would do was sat there with them, and they would take linen or—I’m tryin’ to keep this in layman terms, and I want it to be able to reach the masses. They would take white sheets, fold them, and wrap them around the topper portion of the mother’s stomach and around the lower portion of the stomach, and this was to help bring on the labor pains and to induce the birth of the child.

JNV: Okay. They would take the white sheets to wrap around 00:17:00the stomach?

JR: The top portion of the stomach and the lower portion of the stomach. And I guess that served as some type of band to maybe ease the pain or to induce the labor.

JNV: Well, it sounds like they really did know what they were doing in the interest of the mother and the child.

JR: Especially without any, as we would say, medical training.

JNV: Okay. Without any medical training. That is just really appalling. What was the granny midwife’s name who caught babies in your family and/or community? Can you tell me again?

JR: One was 00:18:00Miss Angie Ward, and the other was Emma Mayberry. And I have to do more research with relatives who are out of state to ask them of the other ones. But those two were well known and well respected, and they were also very clean, which reminds me of a medical term that they utilize for nurses: they were not Sarah Gamps. And the word Sarah Gamp means a nasty nurse. These midwives were respected Florence Nightingales, if you were going to refer to them as so.

JNV: Okay. I’ve not heard her name in a long time. [Laughs.] It rang victoriously 00:19:00when I was coming up. Florence Nightingale. Was the midwife—? I think you said that one of the midwives was a member of your family.

JR: Yes, she was.

JNV: Was that Angie Ward—Angie?

JR: Well, according to—basically, both of them were supposedly to have been related to me, and Miss Angie was supposed to have been related to me by her husband, whom she was married to, and all I know is we never knew—was we called him Bro Ward. And I’m thinkin’ that was— JNV: Okay, they were your relatives.

JR: —that was because of his connection to the church. Everyone just referred to him as Bro Ward, Brother Ward or Bro Ward.

JNV: So how old were these two midwives? Angie Ward was about how old during that time?

JR: I’m thinkin’ she might’ve been in her latter 50s or 60s. 00:20:00JNV: Okay. What about Emma Mayberry?

JR: She was doin’ midwifery around in her 20s and 30s and on up, until we were allowed to go to the hospital and have children.

JNV: Okay. Did these midwives catch babies beyond your family?

JR: Yes. They would serve, basically, the surrounding areas.

JNV: Okay. Which were?

JR: And we can say about three counties: Holmes, Yazoo, Madison, because they’re all closely connected. There is about a seven miles different from the 00:21:00Holmes County to Madison County, and we’d go approximately one mile from Holmes to Yazoo County, ’cause we’re set basically around the Big Black River.

JNV: Well, did the midwives catch both Black and white babies?

JR: I rarely know about what Miss Angie did, but I’m thinkin’ that Miss Mayberry did, because she was a domestic worker, and she reared the other children.

JNV: Okay. Though she lived in a segregated community.

JR: Yes.

JNV: Okay. [Pause.] Why 00:22:00did the midwives catch babies outside of the medical clinics and hospitals?

JR: Well, reason number one, from what I was told, and it did ring true: we were not basically allowed to go to hospitals.

JNV: Why was that?

JR: I guess it was because of the times in which we were living in, and the conditions in which we lived under.

JNV: Such as?

JR: Well, you know, the majority of our personnels worked for the—I don’t want to sound racist, but worked for the white folks. And we had to do basically what we were told to have done. And it was, you know, the majority of us, if you didn’t work on their plantation, you either worked in their homes, 00:23:00because some jobs were limited to our people, and we had to do what—I’m thinkin’ it was Malcolm X, and I don’t want to say that I’m quoting, but we had to do by any means necessary to survive as a race of people.

JNV: So working on the plantations, as well as other jobs, you had to do what you were told.

JR: Exactly.

JNV: What were some of the other jobs, some of the jobs beyond plantation life?

JR: There were some people who would go to other states and basically, like, work in what we would look forward to, was at the sugar mill, which was in 00:24:00Louisiana, where they would be getting cane, you know, to produce various products that we utilize, such as sugar, syrup, and whatever products that the cane was made out of, which was like a seasonal job. And then there were some who actually worked on the railroad, and we had very few people during that time that worked in the industrial areas.

JNV: Now, these railroad jobs, were they in state or out of state, or both?

JR: They were both in and out of state.

JNV: Well, how often did they see their families?

JR: Some would see their families—basically, it depended on where they worked or what type of work they were doin’. 00:25:00When they would go to—we’ll just say to Louisiana—they would be gone for two to three months before returning home. And some would get a chance to come home maybe biweekly, depending upon their transportation mode and if they had any forms of transportation.

JNV: Okay. So that was a lot of shifting going on. Some biweekly. It just really depended on the job, the circumstances, and the people— JR: Exactly.

JNV: —involved. All right. Well, can you tell me if the midwives were refused opportunities to catch babies in medical clinics and/or hospitals? Were they rejected? 00:26:00JR: Some were.

JNV: Okay. Can you tell me—explain that?

JR: We would say it depends upon the region. In our area, yeah, they were rejected, because you didn’t have access, as I’d stated, to the privilege to really go to the hospital, or to a doctor’s office. It all depended. And if you were allowed, as usual, you had to use the back door, where you would be served, or you would be treated, rather, which would be a better word.

JNV: Use the back door for treatment? What about the front door?

JR: You were not allowed to go in the front door.

JNV: Was anyone allowed?

JR: We’re talkin’ in the ’50s and the ’60s.

JNV: Was anyone allowed to go into the front door, go through the front door?

JR: No people of color were. You were always told to use 00:27:00the back door.

JNV: What about the whites?

JR: Naturally, you know, they had—they were always going to be privileged. I called them the privileged ones. They were going through the front door.

JNV: Oh, the whites could use the front door, enter through the front door.

JR: Enter through the front door.

JNV: Enter and exit— JR: —through the front door. Not only in their establishment; the same would apply if they were to come to your home: they would come in your front door.

JNV: Where would the Blacks go into their homes?

JR: Through the back door.

JNV: So if the whites came to the Blacks’ homes, it was the same procedure.

JR: They would enter your front door, and you would greet them. 00:28:00JNV: How were they greeted?

JR: Good evening, good morning. Yes, sir. No, sir.

JNV: Well, what if the Blacks did not adhere to the norm?

JR: Well, naturally, you know, there were gonna be repercussions and circumstances. Some would be battered or even some would lose their lives. It’d all depend upon who or whom you crossed, and what type feelings they had towards you being a person of color.

JNV: Was there a certain age bracket in terms of this 00:29:00that you’re talking about? Could a youngster, a white youngster—if a white youngster came to the Black home, how was the white youngster addressed?

JR: As a young master.

JNV: Young master.

JR: Or Master whatever his last name was.

JNV: If I’m two, if I’m three, how does the Black adult address me, the white child?

JR: They were just, Come, little baby, or little precious one. But it depends. If you were able to communicate and the child could understand, naturally, they were gonna be called master, and they were going to be greeted with, Yes, sir, and, No, sir.

JNV: Okay. So they grew up like that.

JR: With that mentality.

JNV: Okay.

JR: Whereas we had to 00:30:00respect them at all cost.

JNV: And they were called master, white master?

JR: Young master.

JNV: Young master. Young master. In Holmes County.

JR: In Holmes County.

JNV: And the girls were called what?

JR: Miss.

JNV: Miss.

JR: Miss or Missy.

JNV: Did racism interfere with the midwife catching babies, and if so, how so?

JR: That’s a question I really can’t answer, because I don’t know, you know, how did they serve the other community. So that would be a question 00:31:00that I would have to ask someone else who knows more about that than me. We don’t wanna do anything to discredit or to plagiarize.

JNV: Okay, so you have to do some research.

JR: We have to do further research on that topic.

JNV: Okay. Did the midwife talk about medical doctors or nurses who discriminated against her?

JR: The ones whom I’ve talked with, no. They didn’t have anything to say. They would just go on and perform their duties to the best of their abilities.

JNV: Did medical doctors then prevent mothers from having children at hospitals? The medical doctors, did they prevent the mothers from birthing?

JR: That’s a question that I really can’t answer, because I remember 00:32:00that there were some Blacks who were fortunate enough to go to a hospital, and that was the African American hospital in Yazoo City, Mississippi [Afro-American Hospital of Yazoo City], which I think a lot of people have forgotten. And there were doctors there who could perform various operations or deliveries, because it was an African American hospital.

JNV: Oh, it was an African American— JR: Yes.

JNV: Do you know who the doctor was?

JR: I know one was a Dr. Huddleston [T. J. Huddleston Sr., funeral home director, opened the hospital], but I have to go back and find out more information about this, because it was the African American hospital in Yazoo City, Mississippi, where I’ve had some friends of mine whom—parent had given birth to them there at such a facility.

JNV: Okay. Was Dr. Huddleston 00:33:00an African American man?

JR: Yes, he was.

JNV: Okay. Did the midwife—any of the midwives have certificates?

JR: I’m not sure.

JNV: Did Miss Emma—? Okay.

JR: I’m not sure about that, either. But I do know that, from what I’ve heard, that they—during the time, I know they had an eighth grade education, because the eighth grade education was for—had carried more weight than the 12th grade during that particular era, during the ’50s and the ’60s. That’s the era in which we’re talking about.

JNV: More weight than 12th grade— JR: Yes.

JNV: —during the ’50s and ’60s.

JR: Yes, or from back, because once upon a time, if you had an eighth grade education, you qualified to be a full-fledged schoolteacher. 00:34:00JNV: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yes, I recall people talking about that, that there was something outstanding about the person who had earned an eighth grade— JR: —education.

JNV: —education. So many things that that person could do, as opposed to people who had not gotten to that particular rank. Was the midwife, to your knowledge, certified by the county?

JR: Now, that is a very good question. I’m not knowledgeable of that. I was told, you know, most people say that it was a God-given gift, and this was something that they were just naturally gifted with and could perform.

JNV: 00:35:00So it looks like, in this case of Holmes County, at least, that was expected by so many people, because this midwife had the gift of bringing forth life, catching the babies.

JR: Yes.

JNV: Okay. How was the midwife being compensated for catching the babies?

JR: Now, that is something that I hope everybody can understand. Whereas we have to kinda bring the midwife with the church now. Where people were not able to actually pay a fee to the midwife, they would pound them. 00:36:00And what we mean by pounding is, perhaps she mighta needed some butter, flour, or whatever cooking utensils. And the family would just donate that they had to them. Those who were able to pay would, I’m told, pay a fee of maybe three, four, or five dollars. At that time, currency had more weight than it does now.

JNV: So there were some folks who were able to pay.

JR: Yes.

JNV: I remember growing up in a church where it was said you pound the pastor, because there were people who didn’t have anything else to give 00:37:00the pastor. So whatever those goodies were in the pounding process, that’s how they paid the pastor.

JR: And also, you know, that was the way they—they would keep some, and even in, like, the midwife case, if she’d come from afar, we would say basically, maybe—and it’s dark—we would say if she lived more than about five, six miles away, she would end up staying in the residence with the person who was giving birth.

JNV: Okay. And what happened in her own home?

JR: If she had children, I’m thinkin’ if they were old enough, the eldest one would stay and see about the others, along with the husband, or—if she had one. 00:38:00JNV: When she took care of the mother— JR: Yes— JNV: —who was having the child.

JR: —who was giving birth, having the child.

JNV: Did she follow up afterwards?

JR: I’m not sure. I just know, you know, as I was telling you, that some of the children whom some of the midwife had brought into the world always stayed in touch, and respected them, and in some cases, maybe a couple of them became their personal babysitters while the parent worked or whatever. And they would compensate them for seeing about the child. And if someone was givin’ birth, the midwife would take the children with them.

JNV: Okay, okay. Was the midwife forced into retirement?

JR: That’s a very interesting 00:39:00question. From my perspective, I’m saying they were, because of having to have a license. You know, as we say, in order to be a midwife, you need to be licensed nowadays, just as a nurse. And we were going through this period, you know, where we were segregated, and then integration come about, and days were the new laws, rules, and regulation come about where you must have everything in black and white in order to perform these duties.

JNV: So if they did not have everything in black and white— JR: —then they were not to practice without anyone knowing. But some still would help a person, 00:40:00’cause a lotta people couldn’t make it to the hospital. And we have to think, a lot of our people didn’t have transportation, or no one to carry them, so they would still call upon whom they knew that would be capable of helping them to bring the child into the world.

JNV: Okay. So some of the midwives did not have transportation.

JR: Right.

JNV: And they had to depend on others.

JR: Others. And a lotta times, up until I—I want to say until maybe the latter ’60s, there were people who were still using horse and buggy.

JNV: They were using horse and buggy to get about?

JR: As far as transportation to get about.

JNV: Before the ’60s?

JR: Well, during the—up until, I’d say, the latter ’60s.

JNV: Okay, all the way to that point.

JR: To that point.

JNV: Well, who were some 00:41:00of the people who were transporting the midwives?

JR: Just various people in the community, I would say, those who had transportation and could carry them. It’s basically, like, when there was a time—you know, if you wanted to, I’d say, to have gone to the store, and you lived in the rural, you would start out walkin’. And therefore, I had a car, and I was goin’ in that direction. I would see you walkin’. I would stop and just give you a ride.

JNV: So if the midwife was walkin’ the miles—I think you mentioned earlier five or six miles sometimes to the home to deliver the baby. If the midwife was out there walkin’, and you came along, for instance, and 00:42:00saw her, you would offer her a ride.

JR: Yeah, I would just stop and give her a ride.

JNV: You’d just give her a ride.

JR: You know, during those times, that was the way that many people got from point A to point B, just by—I’d say, you have a car and I don’t. You know me and I know you. And you see me walkin’, and I’m walkin’ in the direction that you’re headed in. You wouldn’t ask any questions; you’d just pull over, give me a ride to whatever destination, or give me a ride as far as you were going if you were not going in the same specific direction that I was. And it was, well, you’d wait, or you continue to walk until someone else give you a ride.

JNV: So that was commonplace, wouldn’t you say?

JR: Yeah, it was common, yes.

JNV: Okay. One way that the midwife and the mother 00:43:00and the baby would be taken care of, so to speak.

JR: Exactly.

JNV: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. What were family relations like with the midwife, as we shift to another subject matter? What were those family relations like when you were coming up?

JR: It was basically like, you know, the expression we say, that it takes a village to raise a child. Everybody was on one accord.

JNV: Tell me about that?

JR: You had, and maybe I didn’t have, or if I needed a cup of flour, cup of sugar, maybe some eggs, or whatever it was that I wanted, I would go and ask you. And if you had it, you would, in turns, give it to me. If I had it, you would, in turns—I would, in turns, 00:44:00give it to you. It was a good—well, I’d say, not theory. It was a very good bartering, a lot of bartering goin’ on. You exchanged one good for another.

JNV: Okay. Like kid pro quo—quid pro quo.

JR: Exactly.

JNV: Quo—quid pro quo.

JR: Exactly.

JNV: Okay, okay. The barter system.

JR: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

JNV: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Do you recall any contributions the midwife made within the family and/or the community beyond catching babies? In other words, look at her from a holistic perspective. What was she like in the community?

JR: Very well respected. She carried herself in a noble manner. And the young ladies would look up to her, because of the way she carried herself, 00:45:00and because of the actions and the things that she would do. And it seemed as if she was walk—well, I would say, so to speak, it might seem humorous—walkin’ on eggs. It was just like, I am known in this community, and I have to carry myself a certain way. I have to act a certain way. I have to do certain things, because Washington is watching you.

JNV: Okay. Well, looking at her in acting a certain way—That’s granny midwife so-and-so—in the church, was she a leader? What were some of the duties she performed in her church?

JR: Well, some were ushers. Some were, 00:46:00as we call, on the mother board, or members of the missionary society. It all depended upon what her talents were. And in some cases, you know, in the church, it was, like, if you are married, the female can have various positions. But if you’re single, you know, some positions are limited, because of the laws and statutes of the church.

JNV: Okay. Can you give me some examples of those?

JR: Okay. A great prime example. Just say a granny midwife had delivered a baby to a woman who was single. The single woman really couldn’t have 00:47:00a so-called, as we say, position in the church, ’cause, you know, then that’s when you have to think of biblically, what happens to a woman scorned? You know, there’s a scorned woman, and then there’s what we would say, a virtuous woman, who is married and have certain standards, and by this one being single and with a child, there was a place where you used to have to go before the church, and stand in front of the congregation, and apologize to them for havin’ a child outta wedlock.

JNV: Okay. What if she were a single woman with high character?

JR: Then as long as she had no children—and, you know, some people call them spinsters—she could have a position, 00:48:00but it still would not be like, as we would say—during those times, it was, like, as far as just being, like, a mother of the church, she would probably be more of like a servant in various capacities.

JNV: Okay. But if she was a single woman of moral character, then there were some positions, you’re saying, that she— JR: Right. You know, that she was still respected, but the positions were still limited.

JNV: Limitations, okay. Okay.

JR: As sometime we see now.

JNV: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Okay. How many babies did the midwife catch in the family, and do you recall any of their names? 00:49:00When you speak of Miss Angie, for instance, how many babies did she catch, and how many did Miss Emma catch?

JR: I want to say, from what I was told, Miss Angie caught about a third of our population.

JNV: Okay. When you say your population, do you mean within your family, or do you mean Holmes County?

JR: I’m meaning within the city, or within the town. You know, I’m speaking about our entire community.

JNV: Okay. The community’s population, okay. What about Miss Emma?

JR: And Miss Emma would—had, as we say it, taken up the slack, which I would say she’d done basically about the same. But she was more extensive with hers, because that’s where the story we’d gotten where she delivered a baby 00:50:00in the field. So she was a bit more radius.

JNV: Well, did the midwives have any assistants during the birthing process?

JR: The only assistant I’m aware of, it would be basically by some of the family members in the homes in which she was going to, to deliver the baby.

JNV: So what might they have done to assist?

JR: At that time, the boiling water process, and giving the clean towels, or sheets, or whatever. And, you know, at that time, when we were being conceived—I mean, pardon me, when we were being born—we didn’t have Pampers and what have you. We had diapers. And they would ensure that they had the diapers and all of that ready, 00:51:00so when the child comes in, after they clean it up, that was that, and they’d wrap ’em up. And the midwife would complete the birth certificate and go on about her business.

JNV: Okay. Well, with the assistance that the midwives were receiving, if there were children in the family, were they allowed to be in the room?

JR: No. You know, even in those days, children had their places in the home. And it was always, whenever adults were around, the children knew what to have done—to do. You know that you were going to go in another room or another place of the house, and you were not to come out, because they had a rule: when grownups are around, children are not allowed 00:52:00around grownups, hearing grownup conversations or seeing what grownups are doing.

JNV: Okay. Well, during those particular moments when the children were locked away, for instance, once baby appeared, did they see baby? There must have been some instances when they heard the baby cry, but they did not know how baby came.

JR: No. It was just that, you know, You have a brother. You have a sister. And the myth was, well, where did they come from? And, you know, we had such colorful descriptions [JNV laughs] of giving answers to a question that are not really answers, where they would tell you that, Found him up on the cabbage stack. 00:53:00Or, We went by the brook, and there was the baby.

JNV: This is what the adults said.

JR: The adults would say to the children.

JNV: Okay. So they told the children where the babies came from in their own way.

JR: In their own way, but not actually really telling them truthfully, because of the myth and, I wanna say, their lack of knowledge or not knowing exactly how to broach the potential situation.

JNV: Broach the subject. Okay. Or maybe because of the gulf between the age brackets. The child is too young to understand this now or should not know the birthing process, so we will say so-and-so and so-and-so to the child.

JR: Right. But 00:54:00then—and I’m thinkin’ what it was, it was just—a lot of it has to do with the way our ancestors were reared. You know, it was, like, you are going to say this or say that, because you don’t want this child to get, as they call, grown at an early age.

JNV: That the child should stay in the child’s place.

JR: In the child’s place.

JNV: Okay, okay. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Do you have a story about a Black doctor 00:55:00who was in the community during the time period of the midwife?

JR: No, I don’t. I’m not knowledgeable of one.

JNV: A Black doctor. Did the midwife spend time with any of the children she caught? Was she around them?

JR: As I’d stated earlier, some of the midwives would actually, if their parent were working and they were small children, she would be like their sitter. Or, you know, you could drop your child off over to Aunt Janie’s or whomever, and they would entrust the midwife with it, and that would be another way in which she would make—would subsidize her living.

JNV: Okay. How did the children themselves interact with the midwives? 00:56:00JR: Basically how children relate to their teachers. You know, some would engage and others wouldn’t. And, you know, there has always been a saying that you can tell the type of human being an adult is by the way in which they relate. If a child was withdrawn from you as an adult, basically, they would say that you have to watch her. There’s something that’s not right if this child is withdrawn from them. And, you know, a lot of our people still believe that to this day, especially if the infant is unable to speak or whatever, 00:57:00and you let someone hold your baby, and the baby would begin to just cry and just—well, we would say become rebellious. It was a feeling, they would say, that the child had that you could judge that adult by.

JNV: Okay. Can you provide names and contact information of the children who interacted with the midwives?

JR: Once I get back, I will get that info for you— JNV: Okay, thank you.

JR: —because I wanna ensure that I have the right personnels.

JNV: Okay. Thank you. Did the midwife talk about medical doctors or nurses who discriminated against them, the midwives?

JR: No. The ones whom I know, I never heard them really say anything about them.

JNV: Okay. Did medical doctors prevent mothers from having children 00:58:00at the hospitals? Did the medical doctors themselves prevent the mothers from birthing in the hospitals?

JR: I’m not really aware of that. And, you know, I wouldn’t want to expound on it erroneously. But where we live now, I do know that in the ’60s, they would at least admit some mothers to the hospitals to let them deliver the child.

JNV: During the ’60s— JR: Yes, during the latter ’60s.

JNV: —mothers were admitted— JR: —right, to the hospital. I know that to be a matter of fact, because as I’d stated earlier, I’m the product of a midwife, but all my siblings were born in the hospital.

JNV: What hospital? Was there a hospital in Holmes County?

JR: Yes. There was. At that particular time, 00:59:00it was Lexington Hospital [Holmes County Community Hospital, now UMMC Holmes County]. That’s what we referred to it as.

JNV: One hospital?

JR: One hospital for the entire county.

JNV: Okay. Lexington Hospital.

JR: Right.

JNV: Okay. Was the midwife the community doctor or leader? I think you said earlier that you did not have knowledge of a Black doctor in the community. Was the midwife considered to be something like a doctor in some instances? Did she use herbs, medicine— JR: Well, in some—as you were saying now, that’s something. Some of the midwife had various home remedies that they would tell the mothers, You use this for that, or, You use this for that, and whatever. I’ve forgotten what it was. Oh. If a child had colic, what we called colic, which I didn’t know if it was just simply gas, and, you know, some babies were bothered with gas 01:00:00really, really more severely than others, and they would use—and I hope that I can still—“asphisimy” [asphidity]. That was something— JNV: A difficult word to even spell.

JR: Yes, it was asphisimy. And it was more—it was a little chalky substance like so, and you would cut it and kinda grind it up. And you would use—place it in the baby’s milk.

JNV: In the baby’s milk?

JR: In the formula. Or not the formula, in the baby’s milk, because, you know, basically, before formulas come out, all babies was either breastfed or drinking, as we would laugh and say, pet [ph] milk.

JNV: Yes, yes. I remember—my children are 11 years apart—for the older daughter, being a young woman, I didn’t even dream about breastfeeding, 01:01:00but for the younger one I did. I breastfed her. And so it was truly a different experience.

JR: An experience.

JNV: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Was the midwife active in the community and the church? I think you talked about this at some point earlier.

JR: Yes, they were.

JNV: Okay. What stands out most in your mind about the two midwives you mentioned?

JR: They were humble people. And they were respected. And really, if you think about it, they were just, as we say, regular Jane Does.

JNV: Okay. Were they down to earth?

JR: Yes. When I’d said regular Jane Doe— JNV: So you’d say they were. Okay.

JR: I’m sorry. They was just down-to-earth people. They were not those who 01:02:00exalted themselves above others.

JNV: Okay. Were there other granny midwives within your family?

JR: I’m sure there were very many, because I have—well, we have a heavily populated family, and I would have to do more research to ask them about the ones and whom they know.

JNV: Okay. Were there other granny midwives serving in the community when the midwives you mentioned were serving?

JR: If so, I don’t have any knowledge of them.

JNV: Okay. We have just a few more to go. [Laughs.] 01:03:00Did males play a role during the birthing process?

JR: Not to my knowledge, Dr. Vincent. I’m not sure. You know, in some cases there might have been, but I’m not knowledgeable of any.

JNV: Okay. How were Blacks connected to cotton within the community? What complications, for instance, if there were any, did they encounter? Can you tell me about the role, in other words, that cotton—you know, that’s such a big industry even now—the role that cotton played during this time period, the ’50s and the ’60s?

JR: As you said, that was a—one way, that was basically how the majority of the persons would be able to provide for their family, by actually going, 01:04:00picking cotton, and getting the benefits. That was their job. They would get up in the fields. Get up early in the morning, as if they was on a regular job; pick cotton until the noon hour; take a little break—some would go home so they could prepare them a little meal; return back to the fields; carry their children; and they would pick cotton from, as we would say, from sunup until sundown. I understand that’s part of what we have called now Daylight Saving Time, how that began, in order to have them work longer hours.

JNV: So that was how somebody started?

JR: That was their central motif for provision 01:05:00for their family, working on the cotton fields, just as we have people in the industrial areas or on various jobs now, to supply for their family. And that’s how they would—a lotta their children were reared up to pick cotton. For instance, I’ve had friends who could not go to school until certain times til after they’d gathered the crops, til all the cotton had been picked.

JNV: So did they work in the fields—when you talk about the seasons, did they work in the fields several months without school, and then attended school several months, and then went back to the field?

JR: Well, yes. Basically, you could say it was a— In the spring, they would go and hoe the cotton. 01:06:00JNV: They hoed in the spring.

JR: In the spring, from sunup to sundown. And then once they basically, you know, actually hoed the cotton, and the cotton had grown, and when it would begin to bloom, and once all the cotton had bloomed, which would be—I’d say it would start around September, and they would gather it from somewhere, anywhere from September to basically about December.

JNV: They would gather from September— JR: —to about December.

JNV: —to December.

JR: On the days that were permissible. And when it rained, you know, those who had to work in the fields would be allowed to attend school.

JNV: Well, did this slow the educational process down for many of the Blacks who were there working in the fields?

JR: Yes, it did, for quite a few of them, you know, because 01:07:00whereas I’m attending school every day, going with the entire school year, that places me a step ahead of you, because I have the privilege of going to school every day and not having to go to the field. But for the students who were really, I’d just say, naturally advanced, or who were intelligent, the days that they were out, when they would come to school, they could still perform, and keep up, and not bein’ held back. It has just been a—if you just look at the whole thing, even with the midwife granny, this is such a broad subject. You can’t just discuss the midwife without discussing our way of life. So 01:08:00it’s really a vital part of history, and it deals with all of us, especially those who know and the ones who do not know. And we need to bring all of our history, period, to our people, so that they will be able to appreciate the sacrifices that have been made, and would understand what has been done, what needs to be done, and what we still need to do.

JNV: Okay. Do you have any artifacts on hand that you might want to donate to the Smith Robertson Museum, like pictures, pictures of the granny midwives, like the clothes that they wore, the certificates—we talked about them earlier, 01:09:00whether or not they had those—bedpans, things like that that were used in the birthing process, or just anything that the midwives may have had that they used within their family structures?

JR: I will— JNV: Were there instruments like the hoes that they may have used to plant the soil, and what have you, till the soil? What— JR: You know, that’s why I was saying that I want to refer to a relative to mine whom I’m glad that’s still alive to see if she has any artifacts of her relatives, from her mother, and, if so, I would like to ask if she would be willing to donate it, or see if I can come up with some photographs of the midwives whom I have known.

JNV: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Sounds good. We do have a form, the deed of gift form, 01:10:00for the donors to put the items down that they are donating, like the bag that the granny midwife have, if maybe you had it, maybe you could find it, and those other kinds of objects I mentioned. There are many more, but those are just some that come to mind. Anything that that midwife might have used could be of benefit for the entire community, especially when it comes down to the two Scott Ford houses that are located there on Cohea Street in Jackson. Virginia Scott Ford was a granny midwife in that particular area, and the story goes that she did all of the work herself as a midwife, that she didn’t have anyone to assist her. And those houses are being restored as part of 01:11:00this Farish Street Historical District. And we know that back in the day, Farish Street was such a prominent place of business. And so these artifacts that are being donated are essential to that Smith Robertson Museum, very, very essential. And thinking about tourists in the long haul who will be coming to visit those two homes, and seminars and conferences being held about this historic Mississippi granny midwife, would just be so important for people not only here in Mississippi, but all over the world. You see?

And so, more than likely, I won’t be on the scene, and many others who are still here, 01:12:00but generations to come will be able to benefit. You were told earlier, independent of the interview, that we are doing the essay contest. Your region is one of those regions that the children are being exposed to storytellers like you who will tell them the contributions that you have told me during this interview. Get those children in your family and that particular neighborhood excited about these granny midwives. Get them so excited and encourage them in the excitement to write an essay for competition. That would be the way I would do it. Get them excited, and then encourage them. So this contest is extended until October the 15th. 01:13:00Since I’m the oral historian, I think I can do that, because you and I are just now interviewing. We really do want you, Mr. Roberts, to excite the children. It does not matter how many. It could be one, could be 15 or more, but get them excited.

Again, I am Dr. Janice K. Neal-Vincent, oral historian of Scott Ford House Incorporated and W. K. Kellogg team. My guest today here at Farish Street Baptist Church is Mr. James Roberts. And we certainly do appreciate you, Mr. Roberts, for coming. You’re coming here from Pickens, Mississippi. And you have shared so much, not only about one granny midwife, but about two. And then you broadened the 01:14:00perspective when you talked on other things about contributions that the Mississippi granny midwives in that particular area of Holmes County made to the community. Very excited. And we thank you in behalf of Dr. Alferdteen Harrison, who is the executor of this project. We are so grateful that you could come. In behalf of the planning committee, those who are working along with Dr. Harrison, we are very grateful. And we wish you all the best.

JR: And I pray that this is very successful, and that we have—can reach out to all our young people so they can see that all is not lost.

JNV: Yes, very important. This ends our interview. Thank you so much. [END OF INTERVIEW]