Calvin Harris

CALVIN HARRIS: [Laughter.] We better hush now.

DR. JANICE K. NEAL-VINCENT: Yeah, we have tread on, talking about something else here. But I was just tryin’ to give him the opportunity— CH: Yeah. Oh, that’s good. I was just jokin’. [inaudible].

JKNV: You still adjustin’, so— M1: We’re good now. Whenever you’re ready.

JKNV: Good morning. It is Saturday, October the 9th, 2021, and it feels so good here with our interviewee. I am Dr. Janice K. Neal-Vincent, oral historian of Scott Ford House, Inc. and W.K. Kellogg team, ready at this time to interview Mister— CH: —Calvin Harris— JKNV: —regarding his knowledge of a Mississippi granny midwife, here in Port Gibson, 00:01:00Mississippi, Loess Hills region. I want to ask you a series of questions, and I would love for you to just relax and share what you know about— CH: Okay.

JKNV: —the Mississippi granny midwife you are going to talk about.

CH: Go ahead.

JKNV: First of all, what was the time period when you knew of a granny midwife who worked with you and/or your relatives? And specifically, with whom did she work?

CH: I knew her—I have known her all of my life, and the time period would extend from, I would say, 1964—that’s my earlier recollection of her—until her death in 00:02:00 ’84.

JKNV: 1984?

CH: 1984.

JKNV: When she died.

CH: Yeah. I’m her grandson, and so I used to visit her quite often, and was in her presence throughout her life, so I became aware of her just by her being my grandmother. I’m involved, and I saw her as she performed her duties.

JKNV: Oh, you saw her actually perform?

CH: Well, I saw certain aspects of it. Sometime a patient would come to the house, and she would attend to them, and give them certain medicines, certain, you know—how should I say—certain—she would perform certain tasks, medical procedures.

JKNV: Okay. Well, that should’ve been interesting to you. About how old were you?

CH: Oh, early 00:03:00as I can remember. I think I was about six or seven. At that time, I really didn’t know what was goin’ on, and both of the times, during that time, when I did show up, she would always push me aside, say, “Boy, get out of here.” [Laughter.] She would consider me to be mannish, or things like that. But then, as I got older, I began to realize, actually, what she was doin’, and she was performing midwifery. She was examinin’ patients, I would say earlier [ph]. A patient would come for prenatal care, and at that time there was very little prenatal care, but she served as a nurse, doctor, practitioner, basically all of it at that time.

JKNV: She served in a variety of— CH: Variety.

JKNV: —capacities.

CH: Yes.

JKNV: Okay.

CH: Not only that, she was unusual as of most midwives, because not only did she come and visit her patients, she came and stayed overnight.

JKNV: She did?

CH: And she came and even washed clothes for them, and took 00:04:00care of the house. She practically took over the house. That’s why she was known as Mama Janie [sp?], ’cause of her kindness and she was a little different. Matter of fact, the other nurses or midwives used to call her crazy, [laughter] because she went the extra mile to help people, but that was just her nature.

JKNV: Wonderful, wonderful. Mama Janie.

CH: Mama Janie.

JKNV: That’s a great title. Mama Janie.

CH: Yes, indeed.

JKNV: Well, in what community and/or county did she live? She’s doin’ fine, she’s doin’ fine [ph].

CH: She lived in Claiborne County. She lived in Claiborne County.

JKNV: In Claiborne County.

CH: I think she might have performed—she might have delivered the babies in Jefferson County, but she lived in Claiborne County, yes.

JKNV: Okay.

CH: Yvonne [sp?]?

JKNV: Well, what was the community—? She’s fine. What was the community and/or county like? Were there, for instance, racial relations?

CH: Yes, there was quite a few racial relationships, racial tensions. 00:05:00We lived in the Pine Grove community. Even though I was sheltered from most of the racial tension that was goin’ on at the time, and was right after the Civil Rights, towards the end of it, but I’m pretty sure she experienced most of it, because she used to tell me stories, because being a midwife in this type environment, surely there was racism against her, ’cause she couldn’t practice in hospitals, so she had to go to the child, and she’d use horse and buggy, and they didn’t have automobiles at that time.

JKNV: Did she drive the horse and buggies, or how was that?

CH: No, she drove sometime, and other times her husband did, but most of the time she did, or got someone to do it.

JKNV: She did?

CH: Yes.

JKNV: Okay. She mostly had someone to accommodate her.

CH: Yeah, to take, yeah, take her. Or even the patient would pick her up and bring her to there. Most of the time, that happened, but there were times when she did, 00:06:00you know, travel in that way. But yes, there was racial tension. I’m not aware of any specifically, but I know she experienced some, because that was the tensions during that time.

JKNV: Okay. You are aware of that, that there was— CH: Yeah, yeah, I’m aware of that.

JKNV: —because of the tension during that time.

CH: Yeah, yeah, plus I’ve heard stories. I don’t want to get ahead, but there was one particular incident where she was affected. She had put in for a sweepstakes, and she was selected to be a winner of a house, and once they notified her that she was the winner, once they find that she was Black, they sent her a letter, told her that it wasn’t qualified because she was Black.

JKNV: Oh my goodness.

CH: So that affected her. That affected her. That was a distinct example of racism, because she had won a house, and she was very 00:07:00excited and happy about it, and all her hopes were dashed because— JKNV: Because she was Black. So, actually, did the statement actually say because she was Black?

CH: Yes, yeah, the statement actually said that Blacks weren’t eligible.

JKNV: She was denied.

CH: Weren’t eligible.

JKNV: Oh my goodness, she wasn’t eligible. Isn’t that something?

CH: And [inaudible] exactly what happened. I was told that by my brother, older brother, ’cause I wasn’t aware of it. He told me about that, and that kind of—even hearin’ it now kind of disheartened me.

JKNV: It hurts, doesn’t it?

CH: Yeah, it does, it does, it does.

JKNV: My goodness.

CH: But yes, racism was very rampant at that time, prejudices and racism. Everybody was, “You stay in your place, and I’ll stay in my place,” and everybody was segregated.

JKNV: Yes. That is really something.

CH: Call him, please.

JKNV: Well, what was the granny midwife’s name who caught the babies in the community?

CH: Her name was Janie Clara 00:08:00 Breckenridge.

JKNV: Clara?

CH: Yes, Janie Clara Breckenridge.

JKNV: B-R-E-C-K-E-N-R-I-D-G-E?

CH: Yes, yes, yes.

JKNV: Okay, Mama Janie.

CH: Yes, Mama Janie.

JKNV: And she was a member of your family, so about how old was she during this time?

CH: During the time of my earliest recollection, she had to have been about, I would say, maybe 54, 55, somethin’, if I could put it in perspective, during that time.

JKNV: Okay, 54, 55.

CH: Yeah.

JKNV: And she was— CH: She was my grandmother.

JKNV: —your grandmother. Well, did she catch babies beyond your family?

CH: Yes, she did. As a matter of fact, she delivered—Cupcake, 00:09:00 no!

JKNV: Cupcake is fine. [Laughs.] CH: Okay, I’ll leave that alone, then. [Laughs.] JKNV: I’m accustomed to my grand-dog.

CH: Okay. Yes, she did. She delivered all of my family members, which was 12, and she delivered my other daughter’s kids, which were nine or ten. And other than that, she delivered most babies in the community, in the general overall community, next door, in the environment.

JKNV: Okay. So she was a community midwife.

CH: Cupcake!

JKNV: She was a—it’s fine—a community midwife.

CH: Yes, she was.

JKNV: And your first daughter—did you say your first daughter’s children?

CH: Her daughter.

JKNV: Her daughter’s.

CH: Her daughter. My aunt. My aunt. She had two children, and she delivered all of their children. Yeah, yeah.

JKNV: Okay. Mm-hmm. 00:10:00That’s really great. So do you know approximately how many babies overall your family, as well as outside of the family, she delivered?

CH: Yes, it’s been recorded or said that she delivered 1,500.

JKNV: My goodness! Fifteen hundred babies?

CH: Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed.

JKNV: So did she deliver the babies in her home, as well as outside of the home, or just outside of the home?

CH: Some would come to her house to be delivered, but most—well, in both ways. In both ways, both, both, both.

JKNV: Her house and outside.

CH: Yeah, yeah, her house, both.

JKNV: Okay. She was quite busy.

CH: Oh, yeah, she was always busy. [Laughs.] She was always on the go. Matter of fact, I would see her periodically. By the time I would wonder where Mama Jane is, [laughter] she would show up, because the goodies began to— JKNV: Yes. 00:11:00CH: They weren’t there anymore.

JKNV: Oh my goodness, my goodness.

CH: “Where is Mama Janie? Where is Mama Janie?” JKNV: Yeah, “Where is Mama Janie?” Well, I’m thinking, based on hearing you talk, that she probably was, like, along with the drivers, on call— CH: Yes.

JKNV: —like a doctor would be on call?

CH: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

JKNV: Day, night, any time?

CH: Exactly, any time. She was always on call, and stated there wasn’t a specific time, and even—she provided the prenatal care. At that time, sometimes there were false alarms, or all of those type things. So she spent a whole lot of time away from home. When she went with a family, she stayed with them. She had an extra amount of care. She didn’t just come and look; she would stay and clean up and wash and do all the menial tasks during that time period. So, yeah, she was always on call.

JKNV: Okay, stayed and cleaned up after. 00:12:00That’s really wonderful. Well, did she catch both Black and white babies, to your knowledge?

CH: To my knowledge, I think mostly it was Black, ’cause the environment.

JKNV: Okay. I’m just thinking, 1,500 babies.

CH: Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed. That’s astronomical at that time. [Laughs.] JKNV: Exactly, astronomical, right.

CH: Definitely extraordinary. [Laughter.] JKNV: That’s right.

CH: I can’t imagine 15.

JKNV: Fifteen, right, and 1,500? Oh!

CH: Fifteen hundred. That’s the number that was quoted. Fifteen hundred.

JKNV: Fifteen hundred.

CH: Yes.

JKNV: Well, why did she catch babies outside of the medical clinics and hospitals?

CH: Because most of her clients lived in rural environments, and were either poor and couldn’t afford hospital delivery, 00:13:00or wasn’t allowed to.

JKNV: Okay. When you say they weren’t allowed to, what does that mean?

CH: That means that because of segregation, it was only the white allowed to deliver babies in hospitals, because that was the privilege of a midwife in the first place, because Blacks were denied access to hospitals and care, prenatal care, as well as delivery. So that was a basic, that’s why.

JKNV: Well, do you know where she obtained her skills?

CH: Yes, let me see. She said—[Flipping 00:14:00through papers; inaudible].

JKNV: Take your time. You’ve already answered— CH: —all the questions that [laughs]— JKNV: —the next questions coming up, nine and ten, about the racism.

CH: Yeah, I want to give you that—Cupcake, please go.

JKNV: Cupcake is fine. Cupcake must be bothering you. [Laughs.] CH: She is. She is. She is. She bother everybody when she does, if people come, she still—people be afraid— JKNV: She’s just friendly.

CH: Yeah, she is friendly. Just thought I had that.

JKNV: She’s happy to see the company [ph]. I understand.

CH: Yeah. Yeah, she is. [inaudible] find that for you, [inaudible]— JKNV: Well, as you’re looking for that— CH: Okay, okay.

JKNV: —and you’ll probably come across it— CH: Okay.

JKNV: —did she talk about any of the medical doctors 00:15:00and/or nurses who were practicing discrimination? Did she ever share anything like that within the family, to your knowledge?

CH: She—yes, ’cause she mostly spoke of her right-hand man, which was Dr. Siegfried [sp?], which was the only doctor in the area at that time, and she practiced under him, and he really—I wouldn’t say she was appointed to him, but she often spoke fondly of him because he helped her with a whole lot of situations. So she didn’t speak of any other ones. There was another—Ms. Willie Alfred [sp?] and Ms. Melissa Banks [sp?]. Those were other doctors, or other midwifes during that time. So she spoke of those periodically.

JKNV: Well, did she speak highly of them or negatively of them?

CH: She spoke highly of them.

JKNV: Did she speak negatively of any of the personnel?

CH: No, she never did have anything negative to say about the personnel. 00:16:00She seemed like she had a good relationship with most people. She was well loved, and she didn’t have a unkind word to say about anything, but anyone. However, there were times when she would be upset about certain situations when she had problems with delivery or things like that.

JKNV: Okay. Well, did the medical doctors prevent mothers from having children at the hospitals?

CH: Yes, to my knowledge. To my knowledge, they did, as I said, because of segregation. Blacks weren’t allowed in hospitals. So, yes, that would be [ph] yes, they did.

JKNV: Okay. So the Blacks were just not allowed.

CH: Just not allowed, just not allowed. No, just not allowed. That’s— JKNV: And you said you were about how old during all of this?

CH: I was born in 00:17:00’58, and so I knew her from those years until, I’d say, til late ’70s or ’80s. I knew her most of my growing years and early adult life. However, when I finished, because I left home, I came back from time to time, and she was still practicing at that time.

JKNV: Okay. Do you know if she had a certificate?

CH: Yes, she did.

JKNV: Do you have it?

CH: No, I don’t. It might be with her artifacts— JKNV: With the other artifacts.

CH: But she was certified at that time.

JKNV: Okay. So she was certified by what county?

CH: I’m pretty sure Claiborne County.

JKNV: Claiborne County.

CH: But I have done some research, or have heard that she had to stop practicing 00:18:00medicine, because of the laws changed during the end times, and she had to be, like, certified, or a nurse, or have a nurse certificate. There were more requirements as time passed, but during the early years those weren’t requirements. She was certified, yes.

JKNV: Okay. And during the time that the requirements came along, was she a granny midwife?

CH: Yes, she was. Yes, she was. That was in the latter years of practice, but yes, she was. There were new regulations, and new restrictions, and— JKNV: Well, there’s a large body—I was asking because there’s a large body of research that talks about the Mississippi granny midwife, 00:19:00and how she was forced into retirement, with a retirement ceremony and badge.

CH: Well, that’s basically my understanding of what happened with her. She was forced into retirement because of the changes that were brought upon during that time.

JKNV: Okay.

CH: That, along with that it was time for her. You know, she had done her—she had practiced. But basically, she would’ve done it forever, ’cause she loved it. [END OF INTERVIEW]