Jessie Taylor

JANICE K. NEAL-VINCENT: —oral historian of Scott Ford House, Incorporated, and W.K. Kellogg team. I have this morning as my guest Mrs. Jessie Taylor, who is here in Indianola, recalling her knowledge of Mrs. Bertha Henderson Matthews [sp?], who was a granny midwife. Mrs. Taylor, I have a series of questions that I would like to ask you, as you remember the day when the granny midwife was on the scene. My first question is: what was the time period when you knew of this granny midwife who worked with you 00:01:00and/or your relatives? And specifically with whom did she work?

JESSIE TAYLOR: I first went there in— JKNV: Pardon? Can you talk a little louder?

JT: I first went there in ’68.

JKNV: Sixty-eight. Okay.

JT: I had a stillborn baby in ’68, a girl. And the next time I went there was ’71, 1971, and I had a nine-and-a-half-pound baby.

JKNV: 1971. Oh, that was a large baby, right?

JT: Yes, ma’am. And she delivered the baby on a Friday night. And I went up—she had a stroke. 00:02:00JKNV: She had a stroke?

JT: After she delivered my baby. After she delivered the baby, she had a stroke. I went home that Saturday, for my home, and that was the last. I was seeing her after I had my baby, you know, some years later. We went there to comb her hair, and do different things for her, because she had delivered the last child with me, so we [inaudible] from time to time before she passed.

JKNV: Okay. Well, that had to have been a time. She delivered the baby and then she had a stroke.

JT: Yeah, she had a stroke. She had taken a shot, and the arm was swollen. She delivered the baby. She got a friend of ours to help her deliver the baby, because I walked over that had a baby with my oldest daughter, and she got a lady to help her with delivering, 00:03:00’cause her arm was swole real bad. And that next morning she had that stroke.

JKNV: My goodness. Look at God.

JT: Yes.

JKNV: And so someone was on the scene to help her.

JT: Her husband was in the backyard helpin’ her. He was hanging out clothes for her because her arm was swole, and he was on the back when she had her stroke—she was on the front porch of her home when she had the stroke. And the doctor came in there. Doctor Rhodes [sp?] came in that morning, told me she had had a stroke the day before, and that I could go home.

JKNV: Dr. Rhodes?

JT: Walter Rhodes.

JKNV: What was the first name?

JT: Huh?

JKNV: Walter Rhodes?

JT: Yes.

JKNV: Okay. And so Dr. Rhodes indicated 00:04:00that she had had a stroke.

JT: Yeah, ’cause he came over there to see about it. Somebody went and got him.

JKNV: So was your delivery the very last delivery after all of that?

JT: Yes, ma’am.

JKNV: Okay, all right. What was the baby’s name?

JT: Patrice.

JKNV: Patrice.

JT: Patrice Taylor.

JKNV: Okay, Patrice. That’s pretty.

JT: That’s her right there. [Laughs.] JKNV: In what community and/or county did she live?

JT: Sunflower County.

JKNV: Sunflower County.

JT: Indianola, Mississippi.

JKNV: Okay. 00:05:00What was the community and county like during that time? What were the race relations like?

JT: Wasn’t too good.

JKNV: They weren’t good.

JT: No.

JKNV: Tell me what that means.

JT: Well, in the ’60s, I remember we was in some, you know, racial stuff goin’ on here in Indianola, and during the ’70s it was okay, but it was still a lot of prejudice [inaudible].

JKNV: There was a lot of prejudice. Such as?

JT: Well, just the way they would treat, you know, the Blacks, and we just was— We know that prejudice when we were working for them, or go to the, you know, same place, and you may be goin’ to the bank and different places. We was always, you know—they 00:06:00didn’t want to—or they would give somebody else a loan. The Black men had a hard time tryin’ to get the help, you know. And there wasn’t no, like, fightin’ or nothin’ like that, but it was just still—we had a long way to go.

JKNV: Had a long way to go.

JT: Yes, ma’am.

JKNV: Was it the type of situation where you stayed on one side and— JT: Surely, surely, surely.

JKNV: —the whites stayed on the other?

JT: Everybody’s side [ph].

JKNV: So there was that segregation.

JT: Yes.

JKNV: Was Mrs. Matthews a member of your family?

JT: Not that I told her 00:07:00[ph]. No, ma’am.

JKNV: Okay. [Laughs.] JT: I love her, though.

JKNV: Did she catch babies beyond—? Well, yeah, she had to catch babies beyond the family members, because— JT: Many, many.

JKNV: —you weren’t a family member.

JT: Many. She caught many.

JKNV: Okay, many.

JT: Different races.

JKNV: Okay. Did she catch both Black and white babies?

JT: Yes, she told me she did.

JKNV: Okay. Why did she catch babies outside of the medical clinics and hospitals?

JT: I’m not sure, but I took that day she couldn’t because of the prejudice. You know, she wasn’t just allowed to work in that facility.

JKNV: Okay. Due to segregation?

JT: Yes, ma’am. 00:08:00JKNV: Was she refused opportunities to catch babies in the hospitals and clinics?

JT: I’m sure she was.

JKNV: Did racism interfere with her catchin’ the babies?

JT: In some cases, she told me.

JKNV: Okay. She told you?

JT: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

JKNV: Do you have a statement that you recall?

JT: No statement, but she just would talk— JKNV: But she did that.

JT: After the stroke, I went visit her, and she told me the story. 00:09:00JKNV: In those conversations, did she talk about the medical doctors or nurses who discriminated against her?

JT: A little bit. She said a few things— JKNV: Pardon?

JT: —about it. She said a few things about ’em.

JKNV: Okay. Would you care to disclose them?

JT: Well, she told me about how they were treatin’ her, you know, and in some cases she said it was tried to keep people from comin’ to her home for her to catch the baby.

JKNV: Tell me again about the people comin’ to the home?

JT: The different races started, you know, comin’ there, and they were tryin’ to, you know, stop her from doin’ it, but she never did stop, she said.

JKNV: Who were tryin’ to stop her?

JT: The white 00:10:00 doctors.

JKNV: Oh. The white doctors?

JT: Yes, ma’am. Some of ’em. You know, I don’t know. And I think that she told me that some of the other midladies, as well, ’cause she had a whole lot of ’em comin’ there, peoples, a whole lotta people comin’ there. And she said they was tryin’ to stop her.

JKNV: Okay. Did the medical doctors prevent the mothers from having children in the hospitals or the clinics?

JT: The mother of the children? I don’t— I can’t remember that part.

JKNV: Okay. Did Mrs. Henderson have a birth certificate? Mrs. Matthews?

JT: Yes, ma’am.

JKNV: She did? Was she 00:11:00certified by the County?

JT: I really don’t know.

JKNV: But you know she had a certificate.

JT: I believe she was. I— Yeah, she went through everything, yes.

JKNV: Okay. How was Mrs. Matthews compensated for catching the babies?

JT: You know, I’m not sure, because she didn’t charge me anything. I don’t remember ever chargin’ me for both the babies that she caught for me, so I don’t know. Did she fill insurance for it? I don’t know.

JKNV: Okay. So how many of your children 00:12:00did she deliver?

JT: One.

JKNV: One.

JT: One that lived, but I went there for a stillborn that she delivered that baby.

JKNV: Okay. So you went to her twice.

JT: Yes, ma’am.

JKNV: Okay. Was she— JT: ’68— JKNV: —forced—? Pardon?

JT: ’68 and ’71.

JKNV: And ’71, yes. Was she forced into retirement, to your knowledge?

JT: To me, when she had that stroke that morning, that’s what forced her into—’cause she was still delivering babies.

JKNV: Okay. So it was the illness.

JT: It wasn’t—I don’t know the story [ph]. I know the story but I may not [inaudible]— JKNV: Pardon?

F1: About [inaudible]?

JT: —this story [ph].

F1: About [inaudible].

JT: I know the story, but 00:13:00[inaudible]— JKNV: I can’t hear it.

F1: She wants you to talk.

JT: When we're done with the camera on.

JKNV: So when she had her stroke— JT: You want to hear it? Yeah, you said was she forced into retirement.

JKNV: Yes, was she forced into retirement?

JT: You can say that, yes, ma’am. A incident happened that morning that caused the stroke.

JKNV: So that was, like, maybe medical profession taking advantage of, well, the opportunity?

JT: I was told by her, which I did not record anything, but sittin’ in her home, she did tell me that they were tryin’ to put her out of the— JKNV: Mm-hmm [affirmative], okay.

JT: —what she’d been on [ph]. But 00:14:00the reason she stopped was because of the stroke.

JKNV: Okay, okay. So were these the doctors who were trying to force her out?

JT: She said some of the mid ladies, some of the doctors, but the morning she had the stroke there was, like, some incident went on, and she had—a nail went through her hand. That’s what gave her the stroke. She was tusslin’ with someone, and the nail went all the way through her hand. She had a stroke right there. That what Dr. Rhodes told me. He had claimed [ph] [inaudible]. That’s why she stopped. When I went 00:15:00back some years later, she showed me the nail print.

JKNV: The nail.

JT: And then she said she had to quit, ’cause she couldn’t do it no more.

JKNV: Okay. Okay. That had to be very painful.

JT: It was sad. Yes, ma’am.

JKNV: Yeah. I mean, I think of a pin, and how that aggravates, but a nail.

JT: Yes, ma’am, all the way through. She died with that print right here.

JKNV: Oh my goodness.

JT: She reached this plank [ph], and pretty much went through her hand and gave her a stroke. She already had a swole arm from that shot she had. Every year, they had to take a shot, every year. You know how nurses got to, they take a shot to protect they-self. She had taken the shot, 00:16:00and she said never had swole arm up before, but this time it had swole, so she had to get the friend—one of our church member come over and help her deliver her, and—'cause she couldn’t use the right hand.

JKNV: My goodness. That was really somethin’.

JT: Yes, ma’am.

JKNV: Well, do you know of any family relations with her? What was it like with her and her family, like with the children who were around her in the family? Do you know of anything?

JT: I know her son. He was named John, I believe. I know he took care of her after she had that stroke. He would come every day, see about [ph] to feed her, bring her breakfast, whatever, before he went to school, ’cause he was teaching up here. [inaudible] teachin’, 00:17:00but he would come by, see about his mama.

JKNV: What was her son’s name?

JT: John Matthews.

JKNV: John, okay. I met John. Okay. Do you recall any contributions that Mrs. Matthews made beyond the family birthing process? Was she, for instance, a leader in the community? Did she work in the church?

JT: I don’t know.

JKNV: Okay. 00:18:00Did she have any assistance during the birthing process? Was there anyone to assist her?

JT: I didn’t see no one but the lady I told you about. I don’t know what her name [ph] is.

JKNV: Do you have a story about a Black doctor in the community during this period? You mentioned the Dr. Rhodes. Was he Black?

JT: He was white.

JKNV: Okay. Do you recall a Black doctor during that time?

JT: No. [Laughs.] No.

JKNV: Okay. No Black doctor. Did Mrs. Matthews spend time 00:19:00with any of the children she caught? Did she spend any time?

JT: Not that I know of. I would carry my kids over there and see about her sometimes.

JKNV: Pardon?

JT: I carried some of my kids over there to help take care of her when she had the stroke, after she had this stroke.

JKNV: Okay. And what was that like?

JT: We enjoyed it. We enjoyed it. She wanted something to eat, they got that for her. They comb her hair. ’Cause she was, you know— JKNV: Well, how did the children interact with her?

JT: My kids loved her. I don’t know. That’s 00:20:00[inaudible]. My kids [inaudible], they enjoyed it. Everyone [ph] she was related.

JKNV: What were some of the things they did with her?

JT: Well, they just talk a little bit and did what she wanted them to do around the house, like get her somethin’ to eat, or comb her hair, and we’d sit there and talk about different things.

JKNV: Okay.

JT: She told me a lot. [Laughs.] JKNV: So they had good discussions with her.

JT: Yes, ma’am. Yes, ma’am.

JKNV: Can you provide names and contact information of the children who interacted with the midwife?

JT: Do—?

JKNV: Like your children? You said you went— JT: Yeah, Patrice, Patrice, then Barbara. You and Barbara went.

F1: It was just Barbara 00:21:00and I.

JT: You and Barbara. Uh-huh [affirmative], yeah, Barbara, my other daughter. She didn’t make it over [ph]. Yeah, them, too. [inaudible] too old [ph]. I would go with them and assist them.

JKNV: So it was Patrice and— JT: Barbara.

JKNV: Robert?

JT: Barbara. Barbara. I stroke in ’18 so that’s why [ph] my voice is acting.

JKNV: Right, I understand. Okay. Did you say— JT: Barbara.

JKNV: —Bobby?

JT: B-A-R-B-A-R-A.

JKNV: Okay.

JT: Barbara.

JKNV: Barbara.

JT: Yes, ma’am.

JKNV: Patrice and Barbara. Okay. Did Mrs. Henderson Matthews talk about the medical doctors or nurses who discriminated against her?

JT: Yes.

JKNV: She did.

JT: Yes, ma’am.

JKNV: Okay. Can you recall some things that she may have said? 00:22:00JT: Oh, it’s been a long time.

JKNV: [Laughs.] I know it’s been a long time.

JT: I know she just told me they was against her.

JKNV: That they were against her.

JT: ’Cause her practice—yeah—her practice was kind of famous, you know. People would come all from different areas to her house. She was a great, great woman, yeah.

JKNV: So she was popular.

JT: Yeah, she was popular.

JKNV: Oh, okay.

JT: Yes, ma’am.

JKNV: Okay. And they didn’t like it.

JT: They didn’t like it.

JKNV: Oh, okay. So it sounds like she had a great reputation— JT: She did.

JKNV: —with different ones coming— JT: Yes, ma’am, because my sister had four of her kids there.

JKNV: Feel like I may have known her, I’ve been hearing 00:23:00so many things about her.

JT: Yeah, she was a great lady. Yes.

JKNV: Did the medical doctors prevent the mothers from having children at the hospitals?

JT: They never did me. I couldn’t say.

JKNV: Okay. Was the midwife the community doctor or leader?

JT: Oh, well, I don’t think she was.

JKNV: Okay. Did she use herbs for healing?

JT: I didn’t ever know. She might have, but I didn’t know.

JKNV: Okay. Was she active in the community?

JT: Only thing I know is that by which [ph] active 00:24:00with takin’ care of the women that was pregnant.

JKNV: Okay, okay. Well, what stands out most in your mind about Mrs. Matthews?

JT: Her kindness.

JKNV: Her kindness?

JT: Yes, her kindness.

JKNV: Were there other granny midwives within the community at that time?

JT: Yes, ma’am.

JKNV: Okay. Do you recall any of their names?

JT: Ms. Sadie [ph].

JKNV: Mrs. Sadie?

JT: That’s all I know is her name.

JKNV: Okay, Ms. Sadie?

JT: My sister went there a couple times, but I didn’t go there. I never went there. 00:25:00She lived too far from Ms. Matthews.

JKNV: Okay, okay. Ms. Sadie. Were there other midwives?

JT: I didn’t know another, but I believe there was some other. But I didn’t know. I just know her.

JKNV: I have just a few more questions. Did the males play a role during the birthing process? 00:26:00JT: [Laughter] No, ma’am, not with me. No. Not my husband [ph]. I know he wasn’t gonna [ph] [inaudible]. He was a truck driver at that time.

JKNV: Well, how did—? Did Mrs. Matthews come to you, or did you go to her?

JT: I went to her, ’cause I had heard of her.

JKNV: Okay, well, how did you get there?

JT: I actually walked there.

JKNV: You walked there? Okay, okay.

JT: And had her.

JKNV: Okay. You walked there.

JT: Mm-hmm [affirmative], ’cause she was over one street. I was on, like, this street; she was on the next street. And I just walked there and had the baby.

JKNV: Okay. I was wondering if the mens transported you.

JT: Well, my husband did with the first one, you know, with the stillborn.

JKNV: Okay. With the stillborn, 00:27:00 okay.

JT: Yes, ma’am.

JKNV: Can you tell me how the Blacks in Indianola were connected to cotton during that particular time? What was going on with cotton? Were there complications of any sort that you can recall? What was that 00:28:00like? Did systemic racism exist around the cotton, the picking the cotton, the baling the cotton, getting paid for the work that was being done?

JT: Well, me and my husband moved here to live. I lived some other places around [ph] when I was smaller, but we had went in the country [ph], [inaudible]. And we moved back up here in ’66. And I had came out the field and all that at that time, but I was in that where we [inaudible] pick cotton, and strap cotton.

JKNV: Was that before ’66?

JT: Yes, ma’am.

JKNV: When you were picking the cotton?

JT: Yes, ma’am.

JKNV: Okay, tell me how that may have been. 00:29:00JT: Well, it was hard to— JKNV: It was hard?

JT: Hard, very hard, ’cause we would have to go to the field, even if we just got a newborn baby. We would have to go to field. About a few days after baby born, we in the field, and pickin’ cotton, and your milk come down, and you’re [inaudible], and your milk leaking, and we had to go out there. I had to go pick cotton, count [ph] cotton. I did all that.

JKNV: Well, did that interfere with your goin’ to school in any kind of way?

JT: Yes, ma’am. Yes, ma’am.

JKNV: How was that?

JT: Well, the boss man would tell my father and them to— We went to school one or two days out of the week.

JKNV: One or two days out of the week?

JT: And then they would tell my mom and them that we had to go to field tomorrow, and we couldn’t go to school. 00:30:00When I started school, I was nine.

JKNV: When you were nine?

JT: I didn’t start school til I was nine. And men can go regular. No, ma’am. Yes, we had to pick cotton, and chop cotton. We’d get up at six o’clock. We had to be in the field, actually, at six, and they work us til six, six o’clock in the evening. You would get, like, three dollars a week. Don’t get me wrong: it was three dollars a day for choppin’.

JKNV: You worked three hours every day?

JT: No, ma’am, it was 12 hours.

JKNV: Twelve hours?

JT: Yes, ma’am. From six to six we’ll be in field. We come on, eat lunch, a little lunch, and go back to the field. Sometimes we ate in the field. They would bring you a snack to the field and let you eat, 00:31:00and you go back pickin’ cotton or choppin’ cotton. Yes, ma’am. So it was real hard back then. Yes.

JKNV: So how many months did you go to school and pick the cotton? How many months did you go to school, and how many months did you pick the cotton?

JT: Well, lotta schoolboy home [ph] if it was choppin’ time. We still couldn’t go but two or three days in a week. You had to go back to— Each week you had to go to school some, and if he said [ph] go to the field, you had to chop cotton or pick cotton. Yes, ma’am.

JKNV: Well, 00:32:00when the cotton was done, when you got through picking the cotton, what happened? What did you do after you picked it?

JT: Oh, they would weigh it up, and [inaudible]—what they call it? Sharecroppin’? Sharecroppin’.

JKNV: Okay, mm-hmm [affirmative].

JT: If he had— He give you so much work for you and your family, but at the end, [laughs] at the end of the year, they would always tell them, they come out in the hole. You heard that? In the hole. Then you still owe me. So they go back up there [ph], stay on that man’s place again to work for him another year, unless another white man paid that white man off, and we still could move then. That’s the way that was. And 00:33:00so we never did make any money. Every year, the white man would just say you’s in the hole. This mean you ain’t gon get no money. My family used to work [ph] in that crop. You just worked your crop and my crop, ’cause sometime we would have to leave out a so-called [ph] crop [laughs] and go in his field, and be time for us to gather our cotton, til he’d make us go to his field.

JKNV: You worked your crop.

JT: Yes, ma’am.

JKNV: And went to another man’s field.

JT: Yeah, it’s the boss man. He would give us somewhere to where they sit us [ph]—you know, we grind [ph] and [inaudible] some extra money in a year, but most time you didn’t get none. He just said, “You just work enough to pay off the debt that you owe me for furnishing”—they call it furnishing back then. In March, they would give you some grocery, a certain amount of groceries, every three months, 00:34:00til your field time come back, and then they’ll pay you a little piece [ph] of money for working for ’em. Yeah.

JKNV: So you never cleared the debt?

JT: No, ma’am, never cleared nothin’.

JKNV: Well, what happened in never clearing the debt? I mean, how did you—?

JT: They would just make us work the whole year, pickin’ the cotton, and ginnin’ cotton, but he’ll tell them they just come out—did enough to pay him off for the little money he let ’em have for the crops and things started back. He would let you have groceries, stuff like that, in March of the year. He would give ’em a certain amount of credit. And then he’d tell them at the end of the year they made just enough to pay that debt off.

JKNV: Well, how long did you do that?

JT: Well, I left home [laughs] at 15. 00:35:00I married at 15. And I did til I left home, from, I’d say, about— I guess they sent us to the field about six or seven years old, we was in the field.

JKNV: From six or seven to 15 years old.

JT: Yes, ma’am.

JKNV: And so at the age of 15, when you left, were you held accountable for continuing to pay the debt?

JT: No, ma’am. It was my mother and father. That’s who they had [inaudible] debt, your mother or your father, and I had to pick cotton. I married at 15. 00:36:00JKNV: Okay. You did it from ages six or seven all the way to 15.

JT: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

JKNV: So what was your education like at age 15?

JT: I started school, like I told you, at nine.

JKNV: Started school at nine.

JT: I quit school in fifth grade. Mm-hmm.

JKNV: You went all the way to the fifth grade.

JT: And I quit and got married at 15. So that’s, like— JKNV: Okay, that is really very touching— JT: Yes, ma’am. 00:37:00JKNV: —to hear you talk like that.

JT: Yes, I’m a slave [ph]. [Laughs.] Some of the slavery [ph] got, you know, had to deal with some slave time [ph]. My mom and my brother had to nurse me in the field while they picked cotton. I was on [ph] baby, and they had to keep puttin’ me in the field with my brother. He was a new [ph] baby. He had to stay back there in the field with me while Mother and Daddy would work, go there and pick the cotton.

JKNV: So was that their way of watching the children?

JT: She didn’t find nobody to watch us. She had two at that time, [inaudible]. And she left me with my uncle. And he was a young teenager, too, but he told me all that he done, and got— My face got burnt. He said 00:38:00I fell on the head [ph], but he was kinda mean. I grew up with him. And I think he just put me on the heater. Yes, ma’am. And burned my face. Yes, ma’am. But after that, she took me to the field, left my oldest brother, which he got about two years on me, and had the baby [inaudible] right there on a pallet in the cotton field while they picked cotton. I had to get out the field, you know, before a certain time, like December or somethin’, before December. He would have us strappin’ cotton.

JKNV: So about how old were you, then, when you were in the field, when you first were in the field and your mother was watching you?

JT: Well, my brother, my brother— JKNV: You and your brother.

JT: Yeah, yeah. How old I was? She said I was a month old. She didn’t give me the exact month, but I wasn’t walkin’. I was just a baby.

JKNV: Oh, okay. Okay. 00:39:00JT: Have ’em get Dad somethin’ to [inaudible].

JKNV: So you and your brother were in the field the entire time, until, what do you say, the 12 hours?

JT: Yeah, when it got dark. [Laughs.] JKNV: That each day?

JT: Yeah, right. Yes, ma’am.

JKNV: Okay, sunup to sundown?

JT: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

JKNV: That had to be very difficult.

JT: Yes, it was, but we had to do it.

JKNV: Is there anything else that you could possibly think of that maybe you would want to share about the sharecropping situation? 00:40:00JT: Well, it wasn’t so good. [Laughs.] JKNV: Yes, I can imagine.

JT: It wasn’t so good, how we were just— You know, the prejudice. Like I said, that we wanted to move, then this boss man would have to pay that boss man off, simply because they say, “You still owe me.” Then he’ll come for that. He want you to work for him instead of that man. He’ll pay, so-called pay your debt out to other white man. Then we will move to that place. And the story of my father, he was just— I was a little girl, and they took 00:41:00him outta the house that night, and when he came back in the house, his head was bleedin’ right here [points to temple], because he was getting ready to move off this man place, and they say it was one of our uncles told the white man that my daddy finna move, so he and his brother came there that night and got my dad. He [inaudible] beatin’ him for finna slip off the place and move.

JKNV: Beat your daddy?

JT: Yeah, they really didn’t beat him up, but they hit him right here [points to temple] with a blackjack, there. And when he came back, blood was comin’ out. I was a little girl. When I seed that, I had a hate, you know, but when I got saved I let it go. But that mirror [ph] of him just bleedin’ out his face like that, 00:42:00and I know who had did it, it caused me to feel bad about white folks at that time. I never forgotten it. Yes, ma’am.

JKNV: Yeah, I can feel that myself, just listenin’ to you talk about it.

JT: Yes.

JKNV: So after that happened, did you move on? Did the father continue with the plan?

JT: He moved. He moved. Yeah, he moved. He still moved, but they tried to [ph] teach him a lesson, I guess.

JKNV: Well, I’ve been talkin’ with a person I interviewed—tried—just over the phone, tryin’ to get an interview, rather, and he shared some things in terms of his relatives, 00:43:00’cause he’s far down in the family, like baby, but the older people, lots, so he said all of his relatives were born by a midwife, but they don’t wanna talk about it. They have suppressed the memory, because it was so bad.

JT: Yes.

JKNV: And as I was listenin’ to you, my mind went back to that telephone conversation.

JT: Yes, ma’am.

JKNV: It was so bad, he said. And so I’ve not been able to get an interview.

JT: Yeah, because I was born at home, in the bed. I was the second child, and she had me at home. Yes, ma’am.

JKNV: At home. And I understand that some of the babies were born in the field.

JT: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Probably sure did, ’cause they made you go til you were ready to have the baby.

JKNV: Had to be very difficult. 00:44:00Well, my final question is, for you, Mrs. Taylor, do you have any artifacts about Mrs. Bertha Henderson Matthews? Any artifacts?

JT: Like—?

JKNV: Like birth certificates? You said Patrice was born— Like her birth certificate, a copy of her birth certificate?

JT: Where that is, Patrice?

F1: Well, it’s in my possession. Can I talk? [Laughs.] JT: Yeah, it’s hers.

F1: It’s in— I don’t know. I think it’s— I can check and see if it’s in my car.

JT: That take a long time [ph]?

F1: Well, I can— Yeah. I have it. I think I have it.

JT: Well, you got her. You should— F1: I don’t know. Doctor, I know you’re— I didn’t want to speak for y’all [ph].

JT: Okay. That’s the only one I got, ’cause I don’t have when I got my first baby.

JKNV: If we could possibly get a copy 00:45:00of that, that would be good for— JT: It sure would. That’s what— JKNV: —the Smith Robertson Museum.

JT: Yes, ma’am.

F1: Okay.

JT: [inaudible].

F1: Yes, I— I’ll go and look for it.

JT: It won’t be too much, then [ph].

F1: I will try. I think it’s in my car.

JT: Okay, you gon be long [ph]. [Laughter.] ’Cause she had [ph]— JKNV: Okay.

F1: [inaudible].

JT: She say she got it in the car, she think.

F1: I think. I think it’s in the car.

JKNV: She got it?

JT: Yeah, that would be— F1: I think I have it, I think.

JT: That would be the only one I had with her, ’cause I remember had the stillborn in ’68, and her in ’71, so I don’t remember no history [ph] about my first for her [ph], but Patrice, I do have a birth certificate.

JKNV: Okay. 00:46:00JT: I thought she had it with her, in her hand.

JKNV: Well, do you have a picture of Mrs. Matthews?

JT: I do not.

JKNV: Okay. And so we thank you for this interview. We are very happy that you allowed us, Mrs. Jessie Taylor, to come from Scott Ford House, Inc. and W.K. Kellogg team to interview you here on Saturday, October the 16th, 2021.

JT: Yes, ma’am.

JKNV: Our videographer is Mr. O’Shawn Brewer [sp?]. And we are so excited, again, that you have opened up your beautiful home here in Indianola. I am Dr. Janice K. Neal-Vincent, oral historian, Scott Ford House, Inc., W.K. Kellogg team, and it was a pleasure 00:47:00to interview you regarding the Mississippi granny midwife, Mrs. Bertha Henderson Matthews, who delivered two of your children.

JT: Yes, ma’am.

JKNV: Thank you so much.

JT: You’re welcome.

O’SHAWN BREWER: The time is 11:30.

JKNV: Eleven-twenty?

OB: Thirty.

JKNV: Okay, thank you very much. So— [END OF INTERVIEW]