Dr. Robert L. Smith

Alissa Rae Funderburk: Today is Thursday, March 28th. My name is Alissa Rae Funderburk. I'm the oral historian for the Margaret Walker Center, and I'm here on behalf of the Scott Ford Houses Incorporated to continue the Granny Midwives Oral History Project by interviewing Dr. Robert L. Smith. Dr. Smith, do I have your permission to record this interview?

Dr. Robert L. Smith: Yes, you do.

Funderburk: Thank you very much. Can you please say and spell your name for the record?

Smith: I am Robert Smith, MD. R-O-B-E-R-T. 00:01:00Smith, S-M-I-T-H.

Funderburk: Thank you and can I call you Dr. Smith?

Smith: Or Robert.

Funderburk: Or Robert?

Smith: Yeah.

Funderburk: Okay, great. Again, just for the record, can you tell us when and where you were born?

Smith: Yes, I was born in Terry, Mississippi on December 20th, 1936.

Funderburk: Excellent. I understand your father—was his name Joe Smith?

Smith: Yeah. Named Joe.

Funderburk: He was a farmer and a livestock dealer, is that correct?

Smith: Well, livestock dealer, farmer.

Funderburk: Okay [laughs].

Smith: Yeah [laughs]. His principal income was from livestock trading and dealing and in fact, he worked with the full nine yards. I guess from 00:02:00granny midwife training from his father, he sometimes had to help animals give birth.

Funderburk: Ohh, wow. Yeah, I didn't think of that. But that's probably really useful training.

Smith: Ohh. Absolutely. And it was also useful training in and trading in because he was called upon all over the county and made his usefulness kind of interracial when it was not very popular–Because uh, you know, in terms of farms, more white people had big farms than Blacks. Although we were, I was fortunate enough or he was fortunate enough that, where I was born and reared was really a conglomerate 00:03:00of Black folks who owned farms and who kept those farms and have maintained much of that land through hard times.

Funderburk: That's impressive.

Smith: Huh?

Funderburk: That's very impressive.

Smith: Yes, hm.

Funderburk: Umm, and then can you tell me a little bit about your mother?

Smith: Well, you know, it's interesting. My, my. I'm here, you know, as a result of the subject in which we’re to talk about. My father married Matilda Owens and in 1929 she died from childbirth. And my mother was actually in school at Jackson State, and she was living with the Brinkleys–for 00:04:00which Brinkley High School was named for. And I don't know but somehow, well, I guess because of family connections, land–her parents had land in Terry–he ended up taking, marrying her and taking her out of school. So, she died from childbirth at home from bleeding. Yeah. And married my mother.

In fact, I was fortunate in this way, in a sense that my grandfather–well, actually learned how to read and write and got in an argument with his boss 00:05:00coming out of slavery, and hit the woods. And there was a train slowly moving through, he thought was heading north. It was heading South. And ended up getting off in Terry, acquiring some land, working hard, and in fact he built a plantation house similar to the master's house, he had two stories, the whole nine yards, so. With, of course the smokehouse and all the things that supports the plantation like a grits mill, and molasses mill and, oak trees, pecan trees, fruit trees, the whole nine yards. Yeah, and my father copied that. I was just thumbing through my phone. I didn't grow up in a two-story 00:06:00house. I didn't grow up in a house as big as he did, but I grew up in a seven or eight room house that's 100 years old that this, that a tree just hit six months ago. And we're in the process of putting it back together now.

Funderburk: Wow. I hope that the repairs go very well.

Smith: Well, yeah, I'll show you. It was–it, it looked unrepairable, but it it's, it's coming back.

Funderburk: Good. It's important to hold on to that heritage.

Smith: Yeah. Mh-hm, yes.

Funderburk: What was your mother's name?

Smith: Mother’s name was Wilma Porter Smith. That’s W-I-L-M-A. Porter, P-O-R-T-E-R. Smith.

Funderburk: Excellent. Thank you. And from what I've read, you're the ninth of 12 00:07:00 children.

Smith: That's correct.

Funderburk: So– Smith: Ninth, no. No, that can't be right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, ninth of 12 children. That's correct.

Funderburk: Yeah, that's a lot of children.

Smith: Yeah.

Funderburk: Was that– Smith: Six of them–well, yeah, six of them was by Matilda, and six of them was by my mother. I all–I didn't know, however, that I grew up in a blended family. My mother reared us all as one family.

Funderburk: That's beautiful.

Smith: Yeah.

Funderburk: Um, and can you tell me a little bit about your siblings?

Smith: Yes, my oldest sibling Gladys ended up marrying a young man. And it's amazing how, how, we talk 00:08:00about, sometimes, separation of the Black family for good. She married a man that was recruited by the Great Northerners to come to Minneapolis [laughs]. You've heard the sleeping car porters? Okay, well, he was one of those. I was trying to think of this guy. I've, I've met him. He, he was famous Black guy, yeah, who recruited Black men, what they call handsome Black men who became sleeping car porters. And he will, he worked, ended working for the Northern–the Great Northern out of Minneapolis. It ran from Minneapolis to Washington, to Portland, Oregon and all of that. And they moved. Left Jackson. And she ended up going back to school 00:09:00and working for the school system in Minneapolis and had one child that ended up getting a degree.

But, and then I had the next two sisters and she married into a prominent family here called Coopers, who was–ran a place called Drummers Corners right next to the COFO [Council of Federated Organizations] building. Yeah, that, that was a Black estab–business established area there, yeah. And, and my oldest brother who went into the army and got a trade doing–learning how to put together washaterias, 00:10:00and came back and put together a series of Washaterias in Jackson. One of them is still operating even on Ridgeway. And I had twin brothers who I think were the most successful ones of all because they stayed on the farm with my father. Built twin homes and reared [laughs] successful families. And then on down, on another brother who ended up joining my sister in Minneapolis and on down to me [laughs], yeah. And then George who was, along with Benny, was the first, first two Blacks to be elected to this Board of Supervisors here 00:11:00in Hinds County. And a baby brother who worked in the public schools of Hinds County. That was it.

Funderburk: Excellent.

Smith: Yeah.

Funderburk: Thank you for sharing that. I think families are very important.

Smith: Well, family is most important and that's one of the reasons that–that's to say that my twin brothers are most important in my family. My daddy–uh, you didn't talk about sets of children. We grew up, although my mother was Beams Porter family and his first wife was Owens, but we never knew the difference. We just did not know the difference between. And and the reason I talk so much about my twin brothers is 00:12:00they followed my daddy's footsteps and helped him keep the farm together and we always, on the weekend regardless of where we may have been, we would always come to Terry for gathering. My mother's place was–my dad's place was like Piccadilly’s on Sunday [laughs]. Just flowed through different sets from church to time to go back to church [laughs], then eat good food. I hear people tell stories about having to wait till the preacher eat. I don't know anything about that [laughs]. You know, we always had. We were always fortunate enough to have a dining room table and a, and a kitchen table and enough food, 00:13:00and enough people around to serve everybody.

Funderburk: Well, with the family that big, you needed two tables.

Smith: Needed two tables and needed help. You know, and I'm saying that we always had to help. From family, immediate family or extended family, yeah. So we were just fortunate in light of that day and time.

Funderburk: Hmm. I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit more about your father's first wife. You said she died in childbirth.

Smith: Yeah, she was, she was attended by a midwife at that time. Uh, I, I, I can't really speak to the fact of whether they had a doctor in Terry. By the time I came along, my family doctor was a Dr. Eubanks 00:14:00from Crystal Springs. And he, we–she was attended by a midwife, but was oversaw with Eubanks. Fortunately, my father was one of those few Blacks, again at that time, who had, could afford, did pay for doctors to come out. And it–Crystal Springs–was 89 miles from Terry and he oversaw, I know, the last half of our births, along with having a midwife.

Funderburk: Along with the midwife?

Smith: Along with the midwife. And that was common. You know, I did some of that when I first 00:15:00came back. Ohh, yeah, I didn't want to do that but, but that was, that was just yeah. When I first came back I was what they call the GP [General Practitioner]. I later went back and became a diplomat of the American Board of Family Medicine and, and–. But when I first came back, I would get a house call. And guess what that house call may be? Birthing a baby with the midwife. That is–I don't recommend that to anybody. It's a, it's a scene that you don't never know how it's going to go. And you could never give. In some, well, especially in the first baby, 00:16:00you can never know, you could never give what they call–clip the vagina little bit. Sometimes it help the lady have the baby. But you was afraid to give too much sedation for it. It's just, it's just not a good scene even if you trained [laughs].

And by that time, uh for some reason, I wanted to go into OB/GYN [Obsterics and Gynecology]. And I started delivering babies when I was second year in medical school. I did what they call an externship and at that time Cook County was delivering more babies than any other hospital in the country. 00:17:00Black folk who leaving the cotton fields and coming to Chicago. And as soon as you could finish in one delivery room in Cook County, you go to, you go to another. In fact, last year–this is very interesting too–I had a lady who came from Terry who knew my family and she said, brought me a picture of her grandson. Did I deliver it? Now this, listen to what I’m telling you. This kid is–two years ago, was 66 or 67 years old. And she says, “Dr. Smith,” she says, “I know you, you are probably 95 years old,” she said, “because you delivered my grandson,” 00:18:00and showed me this birth certificate [laughs] where I delivered this kid back in 1955. And she counted the years. But I was actually [laughs], I was actually working as an extern as a physician. And I started delivering babies back then at every opportunity that I got. I use that opportunity to work the emergency rooms or work the delivery suite. And I was needed.

Um, here again. Uh, very interesting. But when we talk about Black morbidity statistics, you have to have–I ain’t gonna say you have to have been in a situation like 00:19:00I came through to really understand and appreciate why the maternal and infant mortality rate for Black infants and Black children–Black infants and mothers are out the roof. And not only in Mississippi, but in Chicago, because as an example, many of these women was just off the farm. None of them had–ain’t gonna say none of them. That's the wrong word to say none. But most didn't have any kind of prenatal care, you know, or had no education about use of alcohol and tobacco. Yeah, they would just show up in the emergency room. 00:20:00I was talking to a prominent lady last week here in Jackson who's now in a very prominent position. Where do you think she was delivered? Cook County Hospital in Chicago [laughs].

Funderburk: And moved down here?

Smith: Well, times got better and she came back. You know, we were talking about that, you know, that it was a great migration. And then some families, you know, held together. Kind of like my family, I was telling you that that land that we have in Terry has been in the family since before the 1800s–late 1800s. And I guess all of my–not all, but my immediate family who went North, 00:21:00ended up coming back to Mississippi. You know. Yeah, and that's true of many families, the migration back, and she has been a part of that migration back in her family. But was born in Cook County Hospital.

Funderburk: So talking about Cook County, you said for some reason you decided to do OB/GYN. Do, do you not recall what the reason was?

Smith: Yeah, well [laughs] the–I, I decided that not because of the situation that–you know, the experiences I had in my own family. But you tend to–once you get into medical school and you go through these different 00:22:00rotations–you tend to end it up, end up doing or traveling the direction in which you have the best grades, or you seem to be appreciated, or you seem to enjoy. And as I told you from–well, starting really in high school, uh. I, one of the most, I guess, tumultuous times I ever had in my life, or stressful times, or headwinds. And so when I get ready to go to college, I told my parents that I was going to Chicago and of course my reasons for wanting to go to Chicago was I want–I knew at that time, even at that time, I wanted to become a physician and I had been told that you needed experiences working in hospital. And the only way I could get experience working in a hospital in Mississippi [laughs] would be working in the kitchen [laughs] or 00:23:00in housekeeping.

And so, of course, I was young too, and my parents didn't want me to do it. But I had a brother in Chicago and, and money in the bank and I took off and started working then. I worked in the day, during the day, uh, in the hospital or or or or, you know. Chicago has the largest–probably one of the, what I won't say now the largest, but they at that time had the largest Medical Center in the country. Chicago, Cook County had about seven or eight different hospitals and University of Chicago Medical School was in there, Viola Medical School, the VA [Veterans Affairs]. And 00:24:00Chicago was the only city in the country that had five medical schools. And all of the medical schools had a service or services–medical services in Cook County. University Chicago, Northwestern, and Viola and Chicago Med and the University of Illinois were already in the Medical Center.

Funderburk: We’re going to pause I think for the camera, to reset. But actually. My best friend went to medical school in New York but did a residency in Chicago. She just graduated or finished last year.

Smith: Where?

Funderburk: She did, uh, Northwestern and she also 00:25:00is an OB/GYN.

Smith: Good. But I ended up. I ended up doing it because I was–I had, I had had that experience early on working in Cook County in OB/GYN. And I was appreciated and I was needed. And so. [Interruption from Videographer] Funderburk: Ohh, okay, [laughs].

Smith: So, the–but there was of course one way, one reason. For one reason or the other, there was always headwinds. And especially Black. I was fortunate enough facing headwinds to be 00:26:00the second Black to–first American Black to get the residency in Cook County. But after getting that residency, you know the training spot. Uh, this is ‘61, The Berlin Crisis. And that's something you may want to look up. The Berlin Crisis came up and guess what? My draft board in Mississippi says, “no, you can't go forward. You gonna come, you gonna come back to Mississippi and go in the Berlin crisis.” But fortunately, two things happened at the same time. Again, three things happened at the same time. Came home and prepared to go into service. At that point didn't have an objection to going into service. Had looked forward to going into service, but found 00:27:00out it wasn't fair. It was because of racism [laughs]. But uh. But anyway, I left training, came to Mississippi, really at the right time. This was just before the height of the civil rights movement in ‘62. Really, nothing to do. Went home to Terry. All I had was a car [laughs] and some books [laughs]. But that and nothing to do. And the three things happened at once. And that was Adam Daniel Biddle [sp?], who was supportive of the students in the civil rights movement, called me up and told me he had heard that I was here and asked me if I would 00:28:00provide some health services at Tougaloo. And and I didn't believe, I really didn't believe that. I was just, you know, Tougaloo want me to come and provide health services? You follow me? Saying, oh God, that was [laughs], I was just really excited, you know?

And then, I guess, I wasn't here a week and I joined Medgar Evers. I was, if you look back at my resume from Tougaloo, I was a member of the NAACP [National Association for the Advancement of Colored People]. And they were having mass meetings, and I was, uh, I was like a king coming to town. Yeah, “Doctor Smith has come back and joined the mass meetings” [laughs]. You know, you follow me, what I’m talking about? And of course, 00:29:00what a delight, what a delight to be home, and what a delight to be needed. And then the third thing all the same time [Dr. William L.] Jaquith, who was considered a white liberal at that time in a sense that although Mississippi State hospital–the mental hospital in Whitfield which is still there–at that time had probably nine or 10,000 patients. Invited me to come and provide medical services to the mental mentally challenged. And of course I said what?

Funderburk: Yes.

Smith: Yes, that was one, that was the one that provided some money. I look back at it, you won't believe it. Just a little over $4000 a year. You can't hire nurse for that now, wait a minute. 00:30:00But, uh, I was going to Tougaloo on my off hours, going to work everyday at Mississippi State Hospital two weeks, and and and was going to mass meeting two or three times a week. And this beginning of the second week, perhaps no longer than the third week, I was leaving the gates of Tougaloo and that's when the harassment started. I was forced out of my car and forced, manhandled, in the back of a Mississippi Highway Patrol car. And to the city jail I went. This is the beginning of the harassment, but the beginning of the appreciation 00:31:00and understanding why I wanted and needed to be in Mississippi. I was–now somewhere, somewhere in some interview, they talked about me saying that I was never coming to Mississippi. That is incorrect. I have never intentionally said that, but I had not planned to come back then. I had planned to, you know, complete my training and then come back to Mississippi. But I just wanted to put that out there.

But we have gotten away from [laughs] midwifery, but this is what brought me back here. And after, later on I was not really confronted 00:32:00at that time with midwifery. But, after I–the next year they shot and killed Medgar [Evers]. And I, along with three other physicians, in that book that, she was talking about, The Good Doctors, you see me leading the picket line which brought attention nationally in linking the civil rights movement to what? Healthcare and the crisis, nationally and internationally, and abroad. Uh. And. And. When I got back home the next day, Highway Patrol did the same thing again and took me to Jaquith and of course I was summarily fired. Yeah, that's when I made the decision to 00:33:00continue my work with civil rights and worked at Tougaloo and, and got introduced to live midwifery [laughs].

Funderburk: Yeah. So you had mentioned earlier that making the house calls for, you know, birthing babies with the midwife wasn't the scene.

Smith: Was what?

Funderburk: It wasn't a good scene.

Smith: No, it wasn't a good scene. And and and I wasn't trained. See at least, my training in medical school was in a hospital and, and even though I had worked and delivered, by that time, several thousand babies. Uh. It’s never. 00:34:00It was with a team. And, and help if I needed it. And just, you know, and back that time too, Mississippi was segregated as–you know. You didn't have interactions. And I'm, I'm going to wander again, but uh, you know, I can't in this interview talk about Mississippi from slavery but let me tell you what happened in ‘55. You know, following the Supreme Court decision declaring separate but equal, the Citizen Council, of course, as you know, was formed in Greenville–which 00:35:00was doctors and lawyers, and the storekeepers or the movers and shakers in every community–and in ‘57 the Sovereignty Commission, which was a paid agency to spy on everybody. And so, people who wanted to do good, you know, I mean even white people, who traditionally would have crossed over and would have been helpful in some of these situations, couldn't do that.

You, now [sigh] there is–People get defensive. And 00:36:00particularly graduates of Black institutions. All Black, historical Black institutions were liberating institutions who believed in human rights and pushed us all forward. But come into the ‘50s that was shut down. If students or faculty members came out openly supporting integration, you got out of there. Ain't no doubt about it, you, you just, just it, just didn't happen. And if you read [James] Silver’s book, The Closed Society, he talks a little bit about it, but don't go into detail on how again that separated 00:37:00the races and sent all of us back, and how that contributed to some of the statistics that we see today that relate specifically to Black people.

Funderburk: Because of segregation, Black people couldn't go to hospital as much or have as much access, right, to doctors.

Smith: Absolutely. Ohh, they couldn't have access and what I'm saying to you. You know where the, where HR is in Jackson State today, that was another thing that Alferdteen was able to do with my help. And that is, get that a part of historic alley in Jackson State. But that was a hospital. 00:38:00It had two wards, one Black–one for females and one for males, and two private rooms. And a delivery suite. And uh, and to get into that place, you had to do, you had to pay at the door. Otherwise you couldn't deliver there. You had to deliver at home. University which delivered most babies, but here again it was a required fee. And so midwives delivered most Black babies.

Funderburk: It makes sense. It's, it's terrible but something like the Sovereignty Commission scares you, right?

Smith: Even– Funderburk: That's the whole–it, it's terrorism.

Smith: It was terrorism 00:39:00and that, and that terrorism went on to the ‘70s until [William Lowe] Waller became governor.

Funderburk: Mmhm. We did. We did go off track just a little bit so [laughs]. Let me check my notes here. Umm. I, I'm curious since we are talking about midwives and access to healthcare, if you could talk a little bit about what it was like in Terry, you mentioned that you guys had a family physician because your dad could afford to pay.

Smith: Did pay. Ain't gonna say could afford [laughs] but he did pay. He did have the ability to pay.

Funderburk: Yeah.

Smith: In fact, my dad many times was able to help neighbors because he had that reputation of paying and many times the, 00:40:00the physician would come to our house and he would take him to a neighbor or friend's house.

Funderburk: Yeah. Um, but for folks who didn't have money or, or didn't have the help of your father, what was healthcare like for them?

Smith: Oh, you you know what healthcare was like. Healthcare was home remedies or no healthcare. Or as another example when I came to town, many times people would call me for a house call because they knew that the–a doctor's signature on the, on the death certificate was a requirement. And they would call you, a patient will be laying over in bed, 00:41:00terminally ill, dehydrated, with none of the accouchements or the ability to take him to the hospitals, or get a lab, or get X-ray. It's just unfortunate.

Funderburk: You mentioned being really excited to work at Tougaloo to come back from Chicago and be asked to provide— Smith: Well imagine now. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I've faced headwinds. And somehow got around those headwinds, accepted into one of the most cherished residencies in the country. And looking forward to completing that residency and all of a sudden 00:42:00you kind of, you get notice from your draft board to come home, okay. You got nothing to do. I'm sitting at home and, and imagine President of Jackson State, imagine him calling me and saying, Robert, would you come and help us with healthcare at the college, or some other institution like that, or Jaquith. Ohh, you know, it was just delighted. It was, it was like a gift. It was a gift. It was an opportunity, you know.

Funderburk: Yeah. I, I brought it up because earlier you mentioned the reason for, you know, doing OB/GYN was you saw that you were appreciated, that you were needed, and it seems like Tougaloo needed you and they appreciated what you had to offer.

Smith: Absolutely.

Funderburk: And I'm just wondering– Smith: You, you must remember now, 00:43:00I was servicing, by the time I came back and again you have to look at there were only about 15 physicians in the whole state who's active–and active doing some kind of active practice. Maybe 50 total. But that other 25 or 30 was my age then. They, you know, cut back or just was worn out, beaten. System had beaten them down, they never allowed them to become a member of the AMA, American Medical Association, or to be a–have a hospital privilege at St. Dominic’s [St. Dominic Hospital] or Baptist [Mississippi Baptist Medical Center]. Of course, at that time, Hinds 00:44:00General, what we call Merit [Health Central] didn't exist, but in a major hospital, yeah, you know. Imagine you, physician, who wanted to become a physician all of your life and ended up in Mississippi. At that time your privileges was in Jackson State if you were here in Jackson. If you resides in the delta, you was at Afro American [Sons and Daughters] Hospital in Yazoo City. Or if you were in Mound Bayou, you worked at Taborian. These were all Black hospitals that just did not come up to the standard of your major hospitals back then.

Funderburk: Yeah. Not to mention they're not big enough for all of the people who need healthcare.

Smith: Absolutely. And, 00:45:00and, and Black people had no way of paying for healthcare. Absolutely no way. Uh, one of the major contributions that I was able to make as a result of being here at that time and linking healthcare to the civil rights movement, was to become the Southern field medical director for the Medical Committee for Human Rights. And the Southern–and the, and the, and we provided the healthcare for the civil rights workers, their families, and people who could not 00:46:00get appropriate healthcare during that period. You got punished for conducting a voting rights legislation meetings and all that kind of stuff. It just seems inhuman, but it was real. Well, anyway, at the end of Freedom Summer, five of us met. [H.] Jack Geiger, who had been, who has been, had been a science writer and had traveled many parts of the world and was in the last year of epidemiology residency at Harvard. And Count [Dillon] Gibson, who was a volunteer, assembled the community medicine at Tufts, we had an institution. And myself from Mississippi, put together a proposal for the Office of Economic Opportunity.

Of course you know the Office of Economic 00:47:00Opportunity was put in place by [President Lyndon B.] Johnson to address this gap that Martin Luther King in particular, and the other four leaders of the four major civil rights organization has called for. And that is opportunities for the least of these to close that gap. And you can see what happened. But nevertheless we put that proposal on [Robert Sargent] Shriver’s office in 1965 and came up with the idea of health centers and it was funded for two centers. And today that provide healthcare for 34 million Americans, over 300,000 in Mississippi with over 1,000,000 visits with 21, 22 00:48:00centers in the state and the other–and the most other thing it has brought back, you know, hundreds of providers and workers. And of course, we still have not what? Expanded Medicaid. There are still 7,800 Mississippians who can't afford the least of it, the modicum of healthcare. They, they don't, just don't make the money.

Funderburk: I'm thinking about starting these health care centers. Like having the idea to start these healthcare centers because you couldn't get privileges at hospitals and obviously Black 00:49:00folks, poor folks needed somewhere they could go because there weren't enough doctors to make all the house calls that there seem to need it, because I mean, it's just, it's an impossible situation.

Smith: Absolutely. Absolutely. And this has not been a long time ago, and people still don't realize that there are still people who fall through the gap. We’ve come a long ways, but we still have what? A long way to go.

Funderburk: Yeah. In thinking about your experience in delivering babies, your experience in doing house calls to deliver babies, I'm curious if you can speak to kind of that transition from most Black babies being born at home, being born with midwives, or a doctor and a midwife 00:50:00to actually being born in hospitals, like what happens to the midwives? What happens to the mothers?

Smith: Well, finally, Mississippi finally came up. Let me, let me go back and and pay tribute to. Alferdteen Harrison for starting this important project that does–hopefully will preserve the. history of midwives. But here again, yeah, midwifery in Mississippi was a little bit different from midwifery in many parts of the country. It was sponsored by mainstream 00:51:00healthcare institutions. Unfortunately in Mississippi it was by midwives training midwives and they did not get the support and did not get the all the training they had until, I guess, Mississippi put in a program starting late 50s, early 60s. And Freda Bush was one of the first ones who's that I can recall that was trained in that program.

And later on, Catholic Charities started the program in the Delta and Black, the Black Nurses Association, Eliza Pillars [Registered Nurses of Mississippi]. These organizations were suppressed. 00:52:00These are the–when I had talked about this oppression of mainstream organizations, who really would have been helpful had the system not have been so divisive as it, you know, had been, and discouraging and punishing people for trying to do the right thing. But the most important thing that happened, that really changed things, was ‘65 in addition to health centers, I was a part of that group of physicians who was invited to White House Conference on Health in ‘65 to give Johnson the political support that he needed to enact Medicare and Medicaid. And then 00:53:00‘66, RMP [?] the support that he needed to give support for healthcare, to bring the advances of healthcare in cancer, stroke and later renal diseases to the local communities. And that money is still, is in effect today. But the most important thing that happened here in Mississippi was, of course, Marian Wright Edelman, do you remember her?

Funderburk: No Smith: Marian Wright Edelman was a young Black female who went to Spellman [College]. And got a law degree and was the first female lawyer certified here and volunteered. And working with us 00:54:00in ‘67 she got the statistics that we had gotten out of the Head Start program about infants, children and the lack of healthcare among children and called the Congressional hearing with with Bobby Kennedy. And tons of monies came to the state for maternal and infant health which would improve things a great deal. And you know, wherever money goes [laughs] hospitals and other institutions and organizations will put in programs. And that has helped a great deal too, to improve statistics. But even today, despite all of that 00:55:00money, for some reason we still have a high infant and maternal health problems in the state and Black women all over the country.

Funderburk: I–[interruption from videographer]. Okay.

Videographer: Gonna check this mic real quick. [Break in Recording] Smith: In the ‘60s, uh, mentioning Black women. But many times, not only that, they didn't have hospitals to go to but delivered babies in the cotton field?

Funderburk: Really.

Smith: Ohh Yeah. That's recorded, you know.

Funderburk: So I'm, I'm, [sigh] I'm just trying to imagine the difference between, you know. Even now, 00:56:00delivering a baby in a hospital can be deadly, right? It's, it. You never know what's gonna happen. You have all the help you can possibly have, and still, sometimes things go wrong. So to hear you say that women were delivering babies in cotton fields, you know, and midwives were delivering babies in, in people's homes like you said, that was a–that wasn't a good scene. Were you scared?

Smith: Absolutely. I'm telling you, I was scared. In fact. One of the most scariest scene, it's all one time is the lady couldn't–you know she, the bed wasn't a good mattress, you know, they were a cotton mattress and she would sink down in the mattress. And she told the woman, says “Ohh, I know what to do.” She turned the straight chair upside 00:57:00down. And put her across the damn chair [laughs]. Yeah. And, you know, it would–but she had the baby. The important thing is, you see it, she had the baby. But can you imagine that?

Funderburk: I can’t. I can’t.

Smith: Yeah, yeah.

Funderburk: And I know so many Black women who are fearful of getting pregnant. Like miscarriages of having accidents or in the hospital.

Smith: Are they? Are they they? They? These stories have been told to them about their mother, their grandmother. You know, this hasn't been–this is all in my lifetime.

Funderburk: And just this as it is for women to go through childbirth, and as scary as it was for you to be responsible, 00:58:00right, in those homes, I'm also thinking of how terrifying it must have been to also be watched by the Sovereignty Committee or the Citizens Council.

Smith: Yeah, I think about me. Now, think about me. All I'm trying to do. Think about me now. Harassment. Think about me. All I'm trying to do is provide healthcare. I'm really, I don't have any talent, okay? Can’t play basketball, I can't play music. I've spent my whole career trying to become a physician and I end up in the Sovereignty Commission file. Is that crazy?

Funderburk: Yeah.

Smith: You know. Because I believe that everybody–that health is a human right, you know, I end up being called Communist. 00:59:00Is that crazy?

Funderburk: It is.

Smith: Really and truly [laughs] I sometimes wonder what the hell I would havedone if I had not gone into healthcare because yeah. I didn't have any–I can't sing.

Funderburk: You and me either.

Smith: [laughs] Yeah, so it;s very interesting. And all that, all I was trying to do was what? Answer a call when people needed me and felt gratified to, at least if I could not do it, have enough background and training to provide them with an avenue to get help.

Funderburk: Right. Just even to tell them what's wrong or where to go.

Smith: Ohh well, I'm not–where to go to get help. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, 01:00:00you know, it was a really tough period in our history and I can't pay tribute enough to people who, who went into midwifery because ever since recorded history, it has been a part of our history. There's, of course as I have read about midwifery, I understand there were two babies born on the Mayflower by midwives. Yeah.

Funderburk: I did not know that.

Smith: Yeah. I don't know where I read that, but I read it someplace. It's someplace, 01:01:00you know, but it's– Funderburk: It's necessary.

Smith: It's necessary.

Funderburk: Umm. I also wanted to talk a little bit more about the way your work, protesting in Atlantic City, right, or working for Tuougaloo, brought attention to a problem that I guess most of America didn't care about or know about. And how bringing attention to the problem brings attention on you, and, and makes your life more dangerous?

Smith: Absolutely. You know, we, my, I, I left Terry because of harassments and and and didn't want to bring my parents into it. And moved to Jackson really just down the street from where I am now 01:02:00because of that. Ohh Christ, it was you know, people calling you up, people into interfering with your phone calls. But the more, really and truly, the more I was interfered with, the more determined I became, you know. I, I, I just–more determined, I'm I'm sure that was the feeling that most of us. Most of the people that I got to know as a physician, in the Medical Committee for Human Rights. And I hadn't had, as a physician, had an opportunity to put my hand on number of people because of my role and because Mississippi 01:03:00was to ground zero.

Funderburk: Umm, I'm, I'm pretty much out of questions for you. I just would like to bring us back around to where we started with family and how important family is and how important it is to share these stories with family. So I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about your family, your children, your grandchildren and what you've told them about Mississippi and, and the history and the legacy of healthcare.

Smith: Well, I have three children and my oldest son [laughs]. Incidentally, I I grew up in church too, but on my biological side of the family, they are preachers now, but back then there were no preachers. We just ohh you know, had to go to Sunday school, 01:04:00church. And growing up in a small town, like I did, my family was split between the Baptist, Methodist, and Church of Christ. My, my mother's family followed Bishop Jones. In fact, uh, and incidentally half of us was baptized with my mother and half of us was baptized with my father. I don't know how that happened. Half of us, Church of Christ and half of us are Baptist. But the ironic thing is, back then, each church had a Sunday. So we, we all dressed up on Sundays was either at the Methodist Church, in the Baptist 01:05:00Church, or Church of Christ Holiness. So I, I got a taste of it all.

What I was going to tell you is. My wife's father was, my wife, of course, was a psychiatrist and, and one of the few in the country at that time and. But her father and grandfather were preachers [laughs]. Her father and w– I have a picture of this, who's one of those prominent preachers who's called to the White House to witness [President Harry S.] Truman sign the bill integrating the Armed Services. And she apparently influenced–I said she apparently influenced my family because my oldest boy 01:06:00declared early he was gonna be a preacher. And I used to say to him, “Sit down, boy. You don't know what you gonna be.” [Laughs] Yeah, I was trying to make a doctor out of him. Everybody I came across, I was trying to make a doctor out of them. And he just finally told me. He said, “Daddy, I'm gonna preach.” You know, I used to take him to the office. Patients loved him. He had a good personality and, you know, and they just loved him.

And my second child, she, [laughs] she was, she was kind of short, and we sort of insisted. We did influence her in college, but she she, she told us that after we had forced her into it, we weren't going to do that for her graduate school. And guess what she ended 01:07:00up doing? Going to Vanderbilt. In Divinity.

Funderburk: In Divinity too [laughs].

Smith: Yeah, and, and my baby son, who was a National Merit Scholar, we tried to force him into Howard. He said no. Uh, I'm, you know. He had gotten accepted at both, three of the ivy leagues and he chose Wharton School Business. Ohh, his number one. And he was on his way, but he died early [laughs]. So. Uh, I have biological family who, who became physicians. Yeah.

Funderburk: You, 01:08:00you do have biological family who– Smith: Yeah. Nieces.

Funderburk: Nieces, oh.

Smith: And nephews, yeah.

Funderburk: That’s nice. Did you teach them everything you know?

Smith: I tried. Yeah, I tried. Yeah.

Funderburk: Do they practice in Mississippi?

Smith: Yeah, I have a niece who is uh, who is–well, she's trying to retire. She, she's directed Women's Health for Central, has been connected with UMMC, done a lot of things.

Funderburk: What’s her name?

Smith: Edith Rayford Smith–Edith Smith Rayford.

Funderburk: Well, before we finish, is there anything that I haven't asked you about that you wanted to get on the record today?

Smith: No, other than the fact that we must continue to work, to 01:09:00make health a human right. And that in addition to that, I think you gotta get politically active and make sure that health is taught from K through 12. I think that people gotta become more conscious and take more responsibility for their own health.

Funderburk: Yeah. Speaking of taking responsibility for our own health, I wonder if there's any advice you would give to Black mothers or Black women looking to be mothers.

Smith: Well, it’s a long story. This is why I say can't. You can't, you can't, you can't teach it all in a lecture. It's one of the things that we brought to the forefront with community 01:10:00health centers, the social determinants of health. You know, housing, good water, good environmental stuff. Not only, the environmental, mental stuff. All of those things influences healthcare. Yeah. And those are things that I think gotta be taught from K through 12. Yo know, physiology, pathology, and all those, and how the social determinants of health influence how weak we become and how long we live.

Funderburk: You saying that makes me think of the water crisis in Jackson and how that inevitably affects 01:11:00 health.

Smith: Absolutely. And what we eat and how we eat. Uh, as an example, I don't think, you know, back in the ‘60s, what do you think was one of the, one of the biggest health crisis we had in the state?

Funderburk: Diabetes?

Smith: Well, diabetes, when it's hadn't gotten worse, but this is where you know, but malnutrition. We still have malnutrition in the state, but we shouldn't have malnutrition in this state if we understood [laughs]. Yeah. Appreciated how to make better health choices in the selection of the food and resources we have.

Funderburk: Well, I want to thank you so much, Dr. Smith, 01:12:00for being here today, for taking the time to talk to me, and answer all my questions, and being such a willing participant in the Granny Midwives Oral History Project. We really appreciate it and I really look forward to transcribing this interview and getting it back to you so that you can make sure we have every detail exactly right for the project.

Smith: Yeah, well, I'm again, I'm just thankful to Alferdteen for doing so much. I don't think Alferdteen knows herself, but Miss Excy Edwards, the late Dr. Excy Edwards–who is incidentally, a distinguished nurse who worked in every aspect of health and the only Black 01:13:00female in the state on the wall of distinguished nurses at Mississippi State Board of Health–and Mr. Jackson, who was a former principal at Smith Robertson Museum, and myself: were the three people who incorporated–got that museum incorporated. And so I'm just happy that [laughs] she is further endowing and, and showing up the importance of the Smith Robertson Museum.

Funderburk: We're, we were really happy to have the Granny Midwives exhibit at the Smith Robertson Museum. And I think Dr. Harrison's goal, you know, for her 01:14:00legacy was really to have the Scott Ford houses be revitalized or or or fixed up in a way that that can also be a museum, that can also be a place for people to hear these stories. I just hope that in the meantime while we're trying to get that off the ground, these stories being accessible at the Margaret Walker Center and accessible online, allows people to learn about this history and even to learn about their own health care. Like you said.

Smith: yeah, that's the way I think is gonna have to start is awareness.

Funderburk: Well, again, thank you so much.

Smith: And thank you for the opportunity. Appreciate the opportunity.

Funderburk: This has been great.

Smith: Make sure Heather gets this, yeah.